Six Flags gets into hair cuts

And then you have certain bridges between NY and NJ that make you pay the tolls in quarters. Like that doesn't make people wait in line. Especially if you don't have 5, 6, or 8 dollars in quarters handy.

My question is, if you use EZ-Pass, can you virtually be at a rest stop gassing up or buying food along the way too? ;)

Well fine! You want to have a special upcharge fee to make your hair cut experience extra special, then those of us with far less remaining hair than the general population should be entitled to scalp handicapped service. Kind of like the express lane at the grocery store when you have 10 items or less. My receding hairline is tired of being discriminated against. Those of us who are follicularly challenged need to stand up against this oppression!

Oops, almost forgot the :)

lol, gonch. $5 is not a lot of money to me. 10 beers was as high as I could go with that argument in order to not make it sound like I was being a poohead...

And I love kids, but I still think that a lot of them are brats. They don't know the value of things. Every kid I know gets more in one Christmas than I got in every one of my childhood Christmasas combined.

..And since it's pretty normal to spoil kids these days, I don't really disapprove. That's why I kind of like this SF Roller Coaster cuts thing. It's cute. And the price is a little steep, but you get a lot for the money.

I plan on staying single for a while, pretty much because I know what you are saying about what it cost to raise a kid. Unless I find a rich guy who wants kids, I'm SOL...lol

Another thing I think is being lost here is that I doubt a $45 haircut experience is meant to be a regular occurance. It's not like you're going to take the kids every months and get the whole shebang.

Once, maybe twice a year if the kid really digs it. B-days, special occasions, etc.

And while I'm looking at the prices, I just noticed that a couple packages include Disney Princess merch. Hmmm.

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LK, I think it's interesting that you equate money spent or material items that kids have with the level of brattiness or being spoiled. I'm not sure the two go hand in hand.

I'm with LK on this one. I don't think it's in direct proportion, but I would say that the main thing undermining values and character is consumerism and the main vehicle for consumerism to get into our houses (other than TV) is ownership of "stuff."

And while I'm looking at the prices, I just noticed that a couple packages include Disney Princess merch. Hmmm.

Some of you may know that The Rat now has "salons" where young ladies (and lads) can get the full-do, complete with hair, nails, makeup, clothing, the works. I was pretty sure I was going to get away with never having to even think about it, because my daugther is past Princess age.

However, she got wind that one of the makeover packages was a Hannah Montanna "Secret Pop Star" do. She asked me about it during our last Orlando trip. I hadn't looked into it in advance, but that night, I took a quick peek at the pricing.

$110.

Get a job, and start paying rent. Then you can spend that kind of money on a makeover if you like. Not until then.

-brian, meanest dad on the planet.

Not even for her Birthday, Brian? lol

Gonch, of course I equate kids getting way too many material possessions with being bratty. A lot of kids lack the understanding of getting what they want because of hard work. Give kids way too much junk and they'll start to expect more junk...and they probably won't be as thankful for it. Make them work a little for it, and teach them the values of hard work, and maybe they'll understand that Mommy, Daddy, and Grandma works hard for the money it took to give them all that junk that they abuse, break, and then throw into their toy box, where it'll never be played with agian.

And I'm not saying that spendin money on kids is wrong. I just wish they would appreciate it a little more. I have plenty of kids in my family that I buy way to much crap for. I'm just as guilty as the rest.

I've seen rooms full of presents for kids who already have everything. They unwrap the present, look at it, and pitch it behind them, and grab the next one. After they open all of those, more are brought in from the other room. It once took my cousins, two of them, three hours to open all of their presents. After a while, the adults in the room left out of boredom.

Gonch, our experience on the subject may be different, but I'd love to hear how you don't equate brattyness with material possessions and money spent on the child. Maybe our definition of brat is different.

Well, you seem to imply that it's impossible to buy a child something and instill a sense of value.

I think of brattiness equating to manners in the sense of how they act. (brat)

I just can't draw a straight line between material possessions and brattiness.

And the Hannah Montana package wouldn't be $110 if people weren't buying them, you guys. ;)

$110 in the real world? Maybe not so much. $110 at Disney World? Pfft. That's one decent dinner.

Of course people are paying it. But, I'm not one of those people. One of my favorite things to do in the Magic Kingdom is to just sit and watch the flow of people---about 40 kids every hour---thorugh the makeover depot there. And, most of those are $200 a pop.

I'm actually pretty value-conscious when I'm at Disney---we don't do too many of the seriously pricey "extras". The kids each get a budget for trinkets that they have discretion over---it's only about $50 each, give or take. I snag my lodging very cheaply (the 2BR in Old Key West set me back a total of about $850 and change for the week). I usually manage to get a good deal on airfare The places I splurge: we always rent a car. We always get the hopper option, even though we don't always use it. We don't worry too much about what food costs, but we also don't quite eat a full-service meal every day---we'd rather not spend the time, and we often take an evening or two off "at home", and since "home" has a full kitchen, it's pretty easy to whip someting simple up. That gives the kids more time at the pool. And, honestly, they'd be happy if we spent most of the time at the pool.

^^ I don't think you can give a child something for free for no reason AND simulatenously teach them the value of hard work at the same time. How would you do it?

I'm not saying everything has to be a lesson in the value of hard work, but I do think the two activities are mutually exclusive.

ApolloAndy said:
^^ I don't think you can give a child something for free for no reason AND simulatenously teach them the value of hard work at the same time. How would you do it?

Well, that's not quite what I said. But...

How hard is it to explain that the things they have are nice, but it took mommy and daddy a lot of time and hard work to be able to get those things and that if you want to always have things like that, you'll have to work hard and do good in school, blah blah blah...or find a sugar daddy. ;)

And I think you guys are debating two different things with me at the same time and trying to use my responses as a catchall for both.

I don't believe $45 for a full-blown haircut and all the acessories in that environment is outrageous. I don't think letting your child do that once in a while will make them a 'brat' or 'spoil' them or distort their sense of value.

It's just kind of fun, you know.

I don't think explanation works as well as first-hand experience. That's one of the reasons we give the kids a budget for junk while they are there---they can use it on anything they want, but they're not allowed to spend past that budget, even if they have more money at home that is "theirs" but they didn't bring with them. The budget is the budget.

This leads to disappointment, and even a stray tear now and again. But, it also forces them to ask the question: Do I really need Yet Another Lightsaber, or should I wait in case there's something I want even more?

Hand in hand with this, we also promise them that, near the end of the trip, we'll take them shopping to buy the things they saw earlier that they've decided they really want. And, we end up going to the Biggest Disney Store In The Universe on most trips as well, because the kids get to shop there. So, it's a bit of a pain for us, but I think valuable for them.

So there's a way to do it, Andy. Brian's way.

Sounds like a good plan to me. The kids end up with the goods, but still learn the lesson.

But they still didn't learn where the money came from in the first place (unless they had jobs around the house that required them to earn their budget).

I hear what you're saying, Gonch. It's possible to buy a treat every now and then and not spoil a kid. I agree.

However, my experience of working with youth is that most of the time when I buy them a treat, they end up taking it for granted and expecting it the next time.

Just as an example, this last weekend, I took some kids to putt-putt (mini-golf) for no real good reason - just because it was a nice day. By the end of the trip some were complaining that "the other kid got more tokens" and "mini golf is stupid" and "how come we don't get to ride the go-carts?" I know that's not always the norm, but do you think they would've had those complaints if they'd had to earn the money required to take them?

But Brian's system teaches value by way of scarcity, and scarcity is the underlying reason for working. Money is a finite resource. Where it comes from is less important than knowing just how much there is.

ApolloAndy said:
However, my experience of working with youth is that most of the time when I buy them a treat, they end up taking it for granted and expecting it the next time.

But isn't that something beyond the situation at hand? Isn't that well beyond "A makes B happen?"

I think that teaching manners and respect and appreciation all happen outside of the scenario you present. And those skills come into play when the situation plays out. Those kids aren't appreciative not because they were given something, but because they were never taught to appreciate a gift.

You can use purchase and gift giving and the like as a tool to teach those skills/values, but it's certainly not the only way. Hell, it might not even be the biggest or most important or even the way that presents itself the most.

Teach a kid to be courteous, appreciative and respectful in general and they'll be courteous, respectful and appreciative regardless of what they have bought for them.

I think the problem is in thinking the skill are learned in the process of giving a treat. That's not where the skill sare learned for the most part, just where they're exhibited.

But it only teaches one facet of scarcity: "While you're at DW, money is scarce." The purchases they do or do not make don't affect scarcity outside of DW. Their bank account at home (and therefore their ability to pay for playstation games) is not affected by their shopping decisions within DW. Bascially you're giving them 50 Mickey bucks and they learn that Mickey bucks are scarce, but Mickey bucks have no impact on the outside world.

Brain, this is not at all personal or about what you choose to do with your kids, BTW. If I took my kids to DW, I'd probably do the same thing.

So this has become CarBuzz, PoliticsBuzz, and now ParentBuzz. I knew I was hanging around for a reason.

You squeaked this in while I typed my first response:

ApolloAndy said:
I know that's not always the norm, but do you think they would've had those complaints if they'd had to earn the money required to take them?

Absolutely.

You've seen adults on these very forums complain that pay-to-play benefits at parks aren't fair. ;)

Lord Gonchar said:
Well, you seem to imply that it's impossible to buy a child something and instill a sense of value.

Close. I am implying that it's (probably) impossible to buy a child "everything" and instill a sense of value.

How hard isit to explain that the things they have are nice, but it took mommy anddaddy a lot of time and hard work to be able to get those things andthat if you want to always have things like that, you'll have to workhard and do good in school...

Agreed. But if you buy them too many things, that message may be lost.

I don't believe $45 for a full-blown haircut and all the acessoriesin that environment is outrageous. I don't think letting your child dothat once in a while will make them a 'brat' or 'spoil' them or distorttheir sense of value.

It's just kind of fun, you know.

I once again agree.

I think we have more the same opinion than different.

^^Zing!

Well, okay there are two things going on in my putt-putt example and I think you're smooshing them together.

One is courtesy and manners. One is value of money.

Some combination of them (or the lack thereof) created the complaining. Sure, the kids may have had bad manners and so they vocalized their dissatisfaction, but it was their lack of value of money (or gifts or things or other people's sweat) that created the dissatisfaction in the first place.

That dissatisfaction wasn't because nobody sat them down and talked to them about appreciation (though that may have prevented them from saying it). The dissatisfaction was from them believing that they would be given rides on the go-carts for no reason and then coming to expect it. If they had some understanding of the value that was being given them, and the scarcity thereof, they wouldn't have been dissatisfied in the first place. They would have been grateful.