Six Flags Announces Nation's Best Theme Park VIP Program
Lord Gonchar said:You can't stand in line for Nitro and groan at the people using Q-bot because you (at any moment in the day) can go get one and do the same thing. I might get a FastPass. You can get a Q-bot.
Just out of curiosity, does SF put a limit on the number of FlashPasses/Q-bots sold? Judging from that picture of the line on Columbus Day at SFGAdv, I'd say no... but I was under the impression that you had to arrive early to buy your Q-bot as well so that they didn't "run out". At SF though, I couldn't see them turning away anyone that wants to pony up the cash for one!
Ray P.
Edit: had all italics. Oops. *** Edited 3/28/2007 7:13:30 PM UTC by ProgRay***
Brian:
Everyone has the same opportunity to get there early, and to learn. The information is out there.
Everyone has the same opportunity to get there early and learn - but once you do there is no guarantee of what you'll get. Even if we both play the system 'perfectly', we may end up with different results.
It still all seems so out of my control. And if it's out of my control, it's random. :)
On the freebie:
That means in theory I can load up on FastPasses as long as I keep getting them outside the two hour window? Am I following correctly, because that's good to know.
ProgRay:
Just out of curiosity, does SF put a limit on the number of FlashPasses/Q-bots sold?
I'm not entirely sure. I always assumed there wasn't and that the price alone kept things relatively in check. But on the same note, I seem to remember reading a TR once about Q-bots being sold out. I suppose they don't carry an infinite number of devices in each park and if that many people are really using them, then the anti-Q-bot crowd is WAY off in their assumptions that they'll hurt business in the long run.
*** Edited 3/28/2007 7:15:37 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
I may have sounded like I was supporting Disney's option but I really wasn't- I was just comparing it to the other systems that are out there. I'm actually in favor of no system that allows anyone to cut to the front of the line- as I've been saying all along, a place in line is something that should not be for sale to anyone because it impacts the other people in line more than it impacts the company selling the place in line. I argue that you technically "own" your place in line. Others have disagreed. The point is, regardless of who owns your place in line, I don't think that is something that someone else should be forced to give up for someone else willing to pay more money. Lines are a fact of life- people driving Hyundais get stuck in traffic just like people driving BMWs... people buying Velveeta cheese get stuck on line at the grocery store just like people buying caviar... people checking into the penthouse suite wait at registration just like people checking into their parking lot-view double bed standard room... why do we accept this kind of thing in some place but not others? I guarantee that if this kind of "pay to cut" arrangement was put into play at the local Dunkin' Donuts, a lot more people would find it unfair... not right... however you chose to phrase it.
(I do wait longer for shows, but that's to get the best seats.)
As for the freebie: each FP has the time you can get your next FP printed on the bottom of it. If your return time is less than two hours away, the "next FP time" is five minutes after your return window opens. If it is more than two hours away, the "next FP time" is two hours. In some parks, on some days, the threshhold is less than two hours, but those details you've gotta pay for.
And, I'll sweeten the pot. Use this code to sign up, and you'll save an extra three bucks:
HE7KD-8GA
(Again, no affiliation. Just a satisfied customer.)
Lord Gonchar said:
[On the freebie:
That means in theory I can load up on FastPasses as long as I keep getting them outside the two hour window? Am I following correctly, because that's good to know.
On your FastPass ticket there is a time printed- that is when you can go to a FastPass machine and get your next ticket. If the time says 12:18 but your Soarin' window isn't until 3:30, you can still get another FastPass for another ride at 12:18. Some parks limit how many "active" FastPasses you can hold for a particular ride, but most times you can hold ones for the Magic Kingdom mountains or the E-tickets at Epcot.
Another thing about FastPass that people don't usually know is that you can return ANY TIME after the printed window- you don't have to use the FastPass in the window given. If we're going to spend an entire day in a park, we'll collect FastPasses throughout the day and save them for later on at night as we're making one last loop through the place- either that or use them as we come across them, depending on what the crowds are like. It's not like you have to zig-zag back and forth across the parks all day.
I may have sounded like I was supporting Disney's option but I really wasn't- I was just comparing it to the other systems that are out there.
No, I understand that. And I'm not totally hating on their option either. I just wish they did it differently.
Gonch - pro virtual queue
Rob - anti virtual queue
That's pretty much the deal here.
why do we accept this kind of thing in some place but not others? I guarantee that if this kind of "pay to cut" arrangement was put into play at the local Dunkin' Donuts, a lot more people would find it unfair... not right... however you chose to phrase it.
Let me get theoretical for a minute.
What about using 'connections' to benefit? (even if it's at the expense of others)
Like say I know someone who can get me ahead in a situation. I'm not paying to get something more than you, I just happen to be in a situation to make it happen.
Like what if there's a reservation-only restaurant that's booked full, but the manager knows me for some reason (friend, family, I did a favor for him once, whatever) and he squeezes me into that sweet 7pm spot, thus backing up the others for the evening.
Or what about the guy at the auto shop. I need something quick done on my car and don't have an appointment, but he squeezes me in real quick pushing others back.
Or what about prices? Is it fair that I can get the exact same thing (hotel room, park tickets, a car, whatever) for less than someone else because I know someone?
Or even a job? Maybe I get recommended because I "know someone who knows someone" and that's the deciding factor for me getting the job over an equally qualified candidate?
Just curious as how you feel about those kind of situations, Rob. :)
Lines are a fact of life- people driving Hyundais get stuck in traffic just like people driving BMWs... people buying Velveeta cheese get stuck on line at the grocery store just like people buying caviar... people checking into the penthouse suite wait at registration just like people checking into their parking lot-view double bed standard room...
Rob, I hate to break it to you, but NONE of these are true.
Suppose you have to drive from MCO to Disney. There are two routes. Bee Line to I-4, which is free, and FL HWY 417 which is a toll road and will cost you an extra $2. Guess which one has constant traffic? Guess which one NEVER does?
If I want to buy Velveeta, I have to go to Kroger, not Bella Vino, because Bella Vino doesn't carry Velveeta, but Kroger does. If I want to buy caviar, I have to go to Bella Vino, because they carry it, but Kroger doesn't. Guess which store has crazy long checkout lines, and which one doesn't?
When did you last check in to a mid-range to high-end hotel? Every single damn one of them has a "preferred customer" check-in desk. How do you become a preferred customer? By spending lots of money each year staying in that chain's hotels. Or, buy renting out a suite on the "concierge floor" or the like.
You might think of equal lines as a fact of life, and if you look narrowly enough (only in one Kroger, only on I-4, or only in one Motel-6), they are equal for all. But, viewed in ANY realistic way, they are not equal. Not one bit.
millrace:
Um..how is a random system more fair than a pay system? Something that is truly random favors nobody...
Something that favors with indiscretion also has to discriminate with indiscretion.
I'm not so sure what's so confusing about the concept that even if I want to participate in the free system I may not be able to, but with the pay system I always have the opportunity in front of me if I so choose.
Brian:
...each FP has the time you can get your next FP printed on the bottom of it.
Is that a relatively recent thing? And by 'recent' I mean in the past 5 years or so. (yeah, I haven't been to WDW in a while) I don't seem to remember that last time I was there.
Brian:
...sign up for TGM. It's amazing how *consistent* your days at the parks will be---very much within your control, and very much not random.
Yeah, when it comes time to plan a Disney thing, I'm hip the the accolades of TGM.
But I do find it ironic that I have to pay to master the free system. ;)
The *trick*, so to speak, is to know YOURSELF, so that you may place appropriate constraints on how you use (spend, utilize?) each of these various inputs to maximize YOUR personal utility (economists jargon for happiness)...
P.S. This is not an advertisement for the Will Smith movie. ;)
*** Edited 3/28/2007 8:07:42 PM UTC by rollergator***
even if I want to participate in the free system I may not be able to
Of course you are able to. You just *choose* not to. That's not the system's fault. It's yours.
But I do find it ironic that I have to pay to master the free system.
You can learn it on your own. But, it will take more time. You can pay some money to save that time. ;)
I don't get how choosing to sleep late means that the free system is unfair. Last I checked, it didn't cost anything to get up early.
So you would rather a restaurant only take reservations from people who pay a premium because it is unfair that somebody who got up earlier was able to call the restaurant before you?
:)
Brian Noble said:
Rob, I hate to break it to you, but NONE of these are true.
Uh, yeah they are.
Suppose you have to drive from MCO to Disney. There are two routes. Bee Line to I-4, which is free, and FL HWY 417 which is a toll road and will cost you an extra $2. Guess which one has constant traffic? Guess which one NEVER does?
That's an exception to the rule. In many parts of this country, there is one main way to get from point A to point B. If a semi slips and blocks three out of four lanes, everyone is stuck in traffic. No one with a fatter wallet is getting into a magical express lane that gets them around it.
If I want to buy Velveeta, I have to go to Kroger, not Bella Vino, because Bella Vino doesn't carry Velveeta, but Kroger does. If I want to buy caviar, I have to go to Bella Vino, because they carry it, but Kroger doesn't. Guess which store has crazy long checkout lines, and which one doesn't?
You're taking my example a bit too literally, and deep down I think you know that. I'm saying that someone that walks into the local Stop & Shop and drops $5 is likely going to wait on a long line just like someone spending $250. And for the sake of argument we'll exclude express lanes from the conversation, because that is an example of where spending LESS money will likely land you in a SHORTER line!
When did you last check in to a mid-range to high-end hotel? Every single damn one of them has a "preferred customer" check-in desk. How do you become a preferred customer? By spending lots of money each year staying in that chain's hotels. Or, buy renting out a suite on the "concierge floor" or the like.
Very recently, and my experiences have shown that those hotels are exceptions to the rules. More often than not, hotels make everyone wait in the same lines, regardless of what the value of their room happens to be.
You might think of equal lines as a fact of life, and if you look narrowly enough (only in one Kroger, only on I-4, or only in one Motel-6), they are equal for all. But, viewed in ANY realistic way, they are not equal. Not one bit.
But they are a fact of life. Excluding things like connections as Gonch mentioned, where knowing the chef at a popular restaurant might land you a better table or one ahead of everyone else waiting, lines are a fact of life. You wait in lines at the bank, the post office, the grocery store (90% of the population likely shops in Kroger-type stores, not Bella Vino), the gas station, McDonalds, Best Buy and Macy's- heck, you even wait in line when waiting for a customer service rep to pick up the phone. Why is it that lines are widely assumed to be a part of life in modern society yet there are certain places they are so unacceptable that people are offered- and willing- to pay to avoid them? Why do most places treat people as equals, but some places are willing to elevate some above others?
millrace said:
I don't get how choosing to sleep late means that the free system is unfair. Last I checked, it didn't cost anything to get up early.
Right. At least the free system gives the same opportunity to everyone. If you get to the park when it opens, you have the same opportunities as the next person that got there when the park opened.
Rob Ascough said:An Acura dealership is going to treat you the same whether you bought a $28K TSX or a $50K RL- why should Six Flags treat people that spent $55 any different than they treat people that spent $250
Then Gonchar, ever the argumentative one, said: I'd even disagree with that. There might be little difference in your particular example as the difference there isn't much. (not even twice the price) But I do certainly think there'd be a big difference in treatment if you went into the Beemer dealer and bought a $32,000 BMW3 or Z4 and if you went in and bought the $122,000 BMW7. In fact, I'd pretty much guarantee it.
Then Rob zinged him back with: You might get a bigger smile from your salesman, or perhaps he'd return your call a little quicker, but having interacted with my BMW dealership many times, I know that is not the case. The service department responds to a 330 owner like they do a 750 or Z8 owner.
To which I respond without bias and completely appropriately:
I have to go with Gonch on this one.
You’re speaking of a $28K car vs. $50k. The equivalent would be entering the park with a $29.99 coupon or entering and paying the $50 gate price. Of course they’d treat you the same.
Go back to that Acura dealer and tell him you want to buy a new NSX (assuming they still made them… stick with me here.) They’ll go through 5 tubes of Chapstick while kissing your ass.
The service department is totally different scenario. We’re talking sales here. If I make and appointment for my C-Class (which I’m 2 weeks overdue for, by the way) and some guy makes one for his $450,000 SLR, the service department will treat us both well, and on time. Pay $50 to get in the park, pay $250 to get in, the burgers are the same. The maintenance done on the rides is the same. The toilets are just as dirty.
I don’t know where I’m going with this… I like talking about cars.
Add to that:
Millrace said:I don't get how choosing to sleep late means that the free system is unfair. Last I checked, it didn't cost anything to get up early.
You're somehow equating fair to free. I don't see how those two terms are synonyms.
Hi
No one with a fatter wallet is getting into a magical express lane that gets them around it.
The guy with the private jet can. Plus, the dual-income couple who can afford to pay the penalty that Junior's day care will impose for being late aren't nearly as inconvenienced as the working mother who can't.
I'm saying that someone that walks into the local Stop & Shop and drops $5 is likely going to wait on a long line just like someone spending $250.
Except that the person who is spending $250 can just go to a "nicer store", spend an extra $5 for the same stuff, and not wait in line.
Very recently, and my experiences have shown that those hotels are exceptions to the rules.
You and I are staying in different hotels. I've been in five or six in the past two months. Every single one of them (a Westin, a couple Marriotts, and a couple Hiltons) have frequent-guest check-ins. As a frequent Marriott guest, that's cool with me.
90% of the population likely shops in Kroger-type stores, not Bella Vino
What's your point? 90% of the visitors to Six Flags Wherever don't get a Q-Bot, either.
heck, you even wait in line when waiting for a customer service rep to pick up the phone.
Did you know what Northwest has separate phone lines for its Elite-level flyers? They do. They get answered MUCH faster than the peon line. Did you know that AmEx routes your call based on your revenue generated? The more you cycle through your AmEx card, the faster your phone call gets answered. That's why they ask you to key in your card number---not to "serve you faster" but to "serve you faster provided you generate a lot of profits for us."
It only LOOKS like these lines are "equal access." They are not.
My guess is that as time goes by, businesses are recognizing that the "high-end consumers" are more appealing (in terms of profit if not appearance) than the bargain shoppers.
You want equity, go to WalMart, where *everyone* gets treated like crap...esp. the employees, which means it eventually DOES filter down to the customers.
Bottom line: Capitalism has its features and its flaws....and it's going NOWHERE, so get used to it.
Edit: Brian (as he often does) made a very valid point that relates DIRECTLY back to the parks thing. He said "It only LOOKS like equal access." And there we are, back at "Perception Station." That's the place where there's almost no distinction between what's actually happening and what we THINK is happening. Disney, while free, also makes a very strong attempt to prevent people from *seeing* when they might be getting bypassed by other guests...whereas SF wants you to KNOW that spending extra money will get you in that fast-moving Q-bot queue... ;)
*** Edited 3/28/2007 8:36:48 PM UTC by rollergator***
Rob, I'm with you on this. Someone, tell us why.
And I'd prefer that all line-cutting systems be abolished at theme parks, period. For crying out loud, just run the rides at capacity, staff the park properly, and get rid of all the extra queues!
You're not in it alone. We haven't all sold out to the "new (theme park) world order" :)
coastin' since 1985
Brian Noble said:
The guy with the private jet can.
Get back to me when you come back down to Earth, Brian. We're not talking about cars in traffic versus personal jets, we're talking about things that the majority of population can relate to, like Six Flags Qbots. Apples to apples.
Except that the person who is spending $250 can just go to a "nicer store", spend an extra $5 for the same stuff, and not wait in line.
Again, apples to apples. You're talking about Lakemont versus Disney. I'm talking about people debating whether or not to buy a Qbot. You're taking this conversation outside the realm of reality and making up a bunch of scenaerios that make absolutely no sense in regard to the context of this conversation.
You and I are staying in different hotels. I've been in five or six in the past two months. Every single one of them (a Westin, a couple Marriotts, and a couple Hiltons) have frequent-guest check-ins. As a frequent Marriott guest, that's cool with me.
I guess we have. Two Marriotts, a Sheraton, two Hawaiian resorts... none of them have had express check-in lines for high-roller customers. Everyone waited in the same line.
I'm trying to keep this conversation based in some kind of plausible reality. Where are you going with it?
Why do most places treat people as equals, but some places are willing to elevate some above others?
This question is based on a false premise. Many businesses do not treat all customers equally, and the set that do not is growing all the time.
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