Six Flags Announces Nation's Best Theme Park VIP Program
I get your point and I think you get mine, even though I was wrong about the walkback at HW, a park I will pay my first visit to some day soon.
I'll agree and support your comment that the parks can make up whatever rules they want to. Do I like it? No, not when the rules are only there to favor profit, and then they get you for all you're worth. (like movie theaters, for instance). Parks stating that line cutting is against the rules and then letting people cut the line for cash is just not ethical.
Line cutting is frowned upon everywhere. The unspoken rule is that if you got in line first, you get to the front of the line first, at a store checkout, at the fast food counter, at the DMV, everywhere. Why should this general rule, taught to us by our parents, suddenly be disregarded and exceptions be made in the name of profit? Being allowed your place in line is a common courtesy that has never been challenged until now.
I don't know how hypocritical it would be of me to say that something like VIP doesn't bother me as much as Q-Bots. VIP is such a limited service. SF is making VIP sound like an affordable alternative to Q-Bot, which may start to become another tier of people who clog up the lines.
If it starts getting to be 50% regular "guests" and 50% "Privileged (walk-on)" "guests", I foresee more backlash than the small percent who actually understand how queue-management-for-profit works.
I invite anyone to explain to me how Lo-Q doesn't make the "stand-by" lines longer due to some people queuing for more than one ride at the same time. That's my biggest problem with the system. If there was a way (and there is not) to keep everyone in one line at a time, both virtual and actual, Q-Bot would be fair and useful. If Lo-Q could somehow do away with users standing in two or more places at a time, and they and SF lowered the price comparable to the $10+$5 DW is charging, I just might be a little less against it.
If Lo-Q could somehow do away with users standing in two or more places at a time, and they and SF lowered the price comparable to the $10+$5 DW is charging, I just might be a little less against it.
The ability to be in two places at once is the selling point. (whether it be two ride lines, a ride line and a food stand, a ride line and a bench, whatever) If you can't do that, there's no point.
As far as the price, I thought we established that as the limiting factor. If it's $10 then everybody will jump aboard and you really do start seeing big problems. I'm still wondering how Dolly plans on pulling it off.
Essentially, you want to make it useless and give it to everyone. ;)
Disney is free and it works the best of ALL virtual queue systems.
Yeah, but Disney limits the number available. There HAS to be a limiting factor or the stand-by line never gets to ride.
And I still don't think giving 3 of every 4 available seats to the random lottery is the 'best' system. Sounds pretty crappy to me.
If done right, it shouldn't matter how many people use it.
So 100% of the line going to virtual queue users would be ok with you?
I could be wrong, but I think Disney devotes 80% of the queue to FastPass. This may also vary per attraction. But, I remember reading that figure somewhere in regards to Rock 'N Roller Coaster.
It just goes to show that you don't HAVE to charge to have a virtual queue that works. Six Flags charges because they just want to make more money. Its not a limiting factor of the system though.
Amusingly, the original justification for Fastpass at Disney was that it would increase guest spending. Rather than wait in line, guests would have more time to shop, eat, etc. Turns out, that's not what happened. Guests instead just got in some other line. As I understand it, Fastpass has a negligible effect on guest spending, but a strongly positive effect on guest satisfaction. As Disney is perhaps more attuned to the latter than most parks---Disney works hard to get and keep long-term, repeat visitors (c.f. DVC)---they have retained it.
Don't kid yourself, though: people are cutting in line with Fastpass. There's no other way to be in two lines at once. What's more, I've seen more than one instance where the fastpass return time was shorter than the posted standby wait. So, not only can I be in two lines at once, but in one of them, I'm waiting less than a standby guest.
The only reason most enthusiasts don't get torqued out at Fastpass is that you only need half a brain to use it, not extra cash. As most guests check their brains at the gate, that works out well for those of us who don't.
the random lottery
It's not a random lottery. It rewards early arrivals who plan their day in advance with some knowledge of how the queues grow. It penalizes late arrivals, those who go where their nose points them, and those who don't know the relative popularity/capacity of attractions.
I get there early, I plan, and I know what rides exhaust fastpasses first, so fastpass gives me a significant, and "unfair", advantage. I never, ever, wait more than 20 minutes for any Disney attraction, and it's usually less than 10, even during busy periods. It's not like I skip things, either---over the course of a week, we pretty much see and do everything on our list, including plenty of repeat rides.
halltd reasoned:
They've figured out how many people can get on the ride in an hour, and how many FastPass guests to allow in to keep the stand-by queue at an "acceptable" length. That makes their system really the only system I see that doesn't allow people to CUT in line. All of the other systems allow people to legally line-jump. Disney's system really is a virtual queue.
Wow! (I wish I had more time right now.)
Six Flags charges because they just want to make more money. Its not a limiting factor of the system though.
So if it were just $10, more people wouldn't use it? Come on!
Brian said:
It rewards early arrivals who plan their day in advance with some knowledge of how the queues grow. It penalizes late arrivals, those who go where their nose points them, and those who don't know the relative popularity/capacity of attractions.
Or in plain English - it rewards the Disney Geeks and penalizes the average visitor. ;)
I kid. :)
*** Edited 3/24/2007 9:16:47 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
I've been to the Disney parks more than your average Disney fan, so I know as the day wears on, the stand-by times get shorter. So, you don't really NEED to use FastPass at the end of the day. Therefore, your "early bird gets the worm" analogy doesn't really hold true on an average day. Sure, on holidays and REALLY busy days, the stand-by times can remain long all day. But, on your average day, you can get on Space Mountain or Splash Mountain in under 20 minutes in the late afternoon/early evening.
I've done the Magic Kingdom without using FastPass and still had a great time. So, its not mandatory you use the FastPass. Its a "perk" they offer. Unlike Six Flags, you don't HAVE to use FastPass to get on the rides in a timely manner.
Lo-Q, on the other hand, makes it to where some people wait, and some people cut, and by cut I mean stand in two ride lines at once.
I have no problem with virtually holding a place in line. I wish someone would figure out how to honestly do it right.
*** Edited 3/25/2007 12:32:34 AM UTC by dexter***
it rewards the Disney Geeks and penalizes the average visitor.
Precisely! No smilies required.
Dexter, I think you are mis-reading the way things work at Disney parks. The limiting factor isn't that most people can't fastpass everything---because, in fact, you can get pretty close. The limiting factor is that most people don't know how. In the six flags case, the difference between the advantaged and disadvantaged guest is money. In the Disney case, it's knowledge.
What's more, some of the missing knowledge is pretty basic. I still have other guests ask me how much fastpass costs. There is an ebay buy-it-now auction right now for 16 MK re-entry passes (think of them as park-wide fastpasses) for just a hair under $400. That's right: $25 per. What's more, is that this guy has sold them in the past for that price. Most likely, some CM is skimming the till of re-entry passes and passing them on to a buddy, who then sells them. Pretty sweet scam, actually.
In both cases, different guests come to the park with different resources, and some guests have a better day than others. What makes one acceptable to you and the other unacceptable is that, as an enthusaist, you have the advantage in one of them.
I've been to the Disney parks more than your average Disney fan, so I know as the day wears on, the stand-by times get shorter. So, you don't really NEED to use FastPass at the end of the day. Therefore, your "early bird gets the worm" analogy doesn't really hold true on an average day.
Sure, early and late things are fine. But, *most* guests arrive between 1-3 hours after park opening, and leave 1-3 hours before park closing. (Of course, that's why the parks are great early and late.) Those guests are hosed, because the return times are farther away *and* the standby lines are long.
Next time you have a "civilian" neighbor go to WDW, ask them how their day was in some detail. You'll be shocked at how little the average guest accomplishes. I don't know who waits in 60+minute lines, but plenty of people do. Just look around Fantasyland at 1:00 in the afternoon on nearly any moderately-crowded day
Edited to add: of course, the same is true of any park. Watch all the lemmings arriving at Cedar Point at 11:30 queue up in the longest line Raptor will have all day. *** Edited 3/25/2007 1:14:06 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
During my last visit to Disney (a couple weeks ago), we didn't really use FastPass that often. The parks were PACKED - literally busier that during Christmas. When we used FastPass, it was for re-rides basically. So, if we had just skipped FastPass totally, we still could've gotten on most attractions in one day at each park. And, it was just doing the parks in circles. We didn't "run around to collect FastPasses." The only attraction we missed was Soarin' and the only ride we HAD to use FastPass for was Big Thunder Mountain. I still don't see everyone's argument that FastPass penalizes the average guest. The queues now seem WAY shorter than before they implemented the FastPass system. I remember waiting HOURS for multiple attractions and now most stand-by queues are under 30 minutes. You guys seem to be missing that best effect of the virtual queue. If 80% of the people are using the virtual queue, you get way less people using the standby - thus making it shorter. So, I think one could argue the virtual queue makes the stand-by queue shorter in some cases.
halltd said:
If people are dumb enough to show up that late and leave early, its their own fault for having to wait in long lines.
"If people are cheap enough to not buy a q-bot, its <sic> their own fault for having to wait in long lines."
If 80% of the people are using the virtual queue, you get way less people using the standby - thus making it shorter. So, I think one could argue the virtual queue makes the stand-by queue shorter in some cases.
Except if 80% of people are using virtual queue, the standby line moves 1/5 as fast. Not to mention the people who are in both lines at the same time. Nice try, but the math is against you. *** Edited 3/25/2007 4:41:58 PM UTC by ApolloAndy***
Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."
I don't really see how you can call people dumb for not wanting to spend extra money on short lines when they've already paid $30-$60 to get into a park. However, I can see how if someone pays $60 to get into a park and shows up for only 4 hours, that you could say they must not care about time management.
Dude - you must not understand how the system works.
Oh, the irony. :)
So, if 80% of the guests are using FastPasses, and Disney wants a 20 minute stand-by queue, the FastPass times get later and later quicker, then they run out.
Then what happens? Everyone who wants to ride a given ride after those fastpasses run out, has to wait in the stand-by line.
Let's use round numbers to keep it simple. Let's pretend a ride moves 100 guests per hour. Therefore they're issuing 80 fastpasses reservations per hour and putting 20 people from the stand-by line through. Things are moving just fine which means that an average of 20 people per hour are choosing to wait in the stand-by line. All is well.
This also means that if the park issues fastpass times from 9am to 8pm (arbitrary times used for the example) that there are a total of 880 fastpasses to be given. (80 per hour x 11 hours)
So what happens when it's actually 145 people per hour taking fastpasses and the fastpasses run out at 3pm (with times reserved until 8pm) and people still want to ride? You're handing out more than 80 fastpasses per hour if you've run out early (which ALWAYS happens) and there's also the 20 per hour going to stand-by. But after that 3pm run-out of fast passes, you now have 100 people an hour hitting the stand-by line (at best) in addition to the 80 per hour that still have fastpasses to use.
100 people per hour in the stand-by line and only 20 being put through. Hmmm. That equals 5 times the wait. (Which suspiciously, is exactly what Andy said about the line moving 1/5 as fast.)
Your description only accounts for time, not people. You CAN'T create additional capacity. The ride moves what it moves.
Brian, I disagree with you that most people don't know how to use fastpass. Are yousaying that if one is not a Disneyphile or coaster enthusiast, then it's likely that they won't understand how to use fastpass? There must be a lot more Disneyphiles and coaster enthusiasts in the world then because we're citing some 80% fastpassers and 20% stand-by.
I don't see anyone being able to prove or disprove that my understanding of how Disney guests use fastpass is true or not. I see it as working out that everyone gets some fastpass rides and some stand-by rides. It's not going to be perfectly fair to each park guest, but if you put forth effort, you can use the system to your advantage.
Fastpass = Effort and knowledge = FREE! with admission = more fair
Lo-Q = wealth and selfishness = $90 or more with admission = less fair
I'll turn it around and say that those who can afford to rent a Q-Bot are the ones who say that it is fair.
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