Six Flags - Flagship Park?
ProgRay said:
CPlaya- I may be way off-base here, but I'd have to say the drop in attendance at GL can possibly be attributed to three years of bad word of mouth when Six Flags owned the place...It's amazing what a bad taste SF left in many Clevelanders mouths.
If that was true, word of new owners shoulda brought people running...only it didn't.
And poorly managed or not, SF never managed to lose a million visitors in a single season there. CF did. They went from a park that--under SF mismanagement--still outdrew DP to one that couldn't post WoF numbers.
They're not gods among men, folks.
-'Playa
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
dannerman said:
You know what I find creepy and toolish? How you just happen to be the only one who's noticed SF's "near-perfect operations" on a consistent basis. Yes, they have had good days every now and then, but remember: even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then.
Actually, anyone that lives near SFGAm does notice that consistently. Their operations are as good as any other park I have been to.
But I hear nothing but good things about SFGAm, so nate is definitly the only one seeing that.
Conversely, if the only CF park you visit is the one in MI, you might think CF is *teh suXorz*...
Bottom line, kinda silly to think of the *chain*, the real deal is INSIDE the parks themselves, and the GMs have a LOT of control over how things are done.
Lastly, word of mouth, both good AND bad, takes awhile for the full effect to be felt...and even though *I* think that GL is "tooclosetoCP", they can still make good with that park....at the very least, SF isn't going to gun for CF's main money-maker any more...;)
You still have Zoidberg.... You ALL have Zoidberg! (V) (;,,;) (V)
S2K said:
Living in Pennsylvania, I was never expecting to see a flyer come in the mail for Six Flags Magic Mountain. The other day, I did receive one in my mailbox. Is it me, or does Six Flags' marketing and advertising suck? Why would they advertise SFMM to people in PA?
I live in PA as well and I recieved stuff from, Marine World, St, Louis, and Kentucky Kingdom. The reason I got that stuff was because they are parks I bought my season pass at that year so i'm guessing they just sent them to every pass holder. If you didn't have a pass at Magic Mountain at one time I have no clue how you got that flyer.
coasterdude, I never said you didn't know anything. I said you don't know everything. There's a difference. I don't claim to know everything, but I'm not the quiet type and will give my $.02 when I do have something to offer. Yes, even if you don't think I don't have anything to offer.
Backing my argument up? I do, you just choose to ignore the details that support my argument. Here's another detail to back up my argument of Mantis's restraints being inefficient:
Mantis runs 8 cars per train, and although I've never ridden Iron Dragon, according to the pics on coasterbuzz Iron Dragon only has 7. That could be another thing helping them along. Also, given this difference, the software architecture of the restraint locks could be set up different. Perhaps locking by every row instead of every 2 rows.
The fact that I've been registered to post for a month is inconsequential. It's not like it was a magical date that I turned on my brain and don't have any prior knowledge. I've been reading for about 4 months longer than that, I was just too lazy to fill out the registration form. I also have 5 years operational experience at an amusement park, and have essentially grown up in amusement parks since I was little - chiefly Dorney, Hershey, and GAdv (but also family vacations to Florida, California, Ocean City MD and others) as well as personal vacations to Cedar Point. Yes, you undoubtedly know more than I do, but that doesn't mean that I don't have anything to offer, nor does it mean that everything you say is necessarily right.
rdreaming said:
Wow, it's amazing how much I dislike you just from seeing these posts on this thread.
I care. No really, I do, especially coming from someone who has called me an asshole at least ten times in this thread. I haven't personally attacked you at all, even after you started the childish name-calling. Again, I see what happens when an argument doesn't go your way.
Actually, you've accused me numerous times now of not having knowledge about the subject of Great Adventure sucking.
Wrong. I never challenged your knowledge on any aspect of SFGAdv except those which you yourself you admitted you didn't understand (namely capacity). Try again.
It's your manner and tone in how you disagree with people that makes you such a gigantic asshole.
Really? This discussion was going fine until you accused me of "posting with such confidence" and suggested I didn't know what I was talking about. On the contrary, it was your piss-poor tone that caused problems in this thread, and anyone can see that in your last post where you called me an "asshole" three times. Please.
Worse, you haven't said one educational thing in the slightest throughout this whole thread
LOL! I think most people would disagree with you (and, in fact, many have). Go back and read the specifics on TTD's blocking and capacity. That's not educational? Really? Maybe you just have trouble learning.
Just please stay on Coasterbuzz, I need other places to go to discuss this stuff.
You're leaving? Good riddance.
Dannerman: Iron Wolf (not Dragon) does indeed have seven cars per train, but suggesting that one additional car throws off capacity that much is a slightly ludicrous. We're talking about one ride that is blocked for two trains and runs two without stacking compared to one that is blocked for three but can't even run two without stacking. And you're claiming four extra seats are the problem? I don't think so. I can also confirm that unlocking restraints on Iron Wolf works the same way as on Mantis (every two rows).
Finally, I never claimed that you didn't know anything or that you claimed I didn't know anything (although you did claim that my experiences with SFGAdv were inaccurate, which they weren't). Nor did I claim that you have nothing to offer. However, it's not so wise to argue about something you're not familiar with. I explained the differences in operations between Mantis and Iron Wolf countless times, and have had plenty of experience with both of them. If you don't, perhaps you shouldn't argue it.
-Nate
It may be slightly ludicrous, but I don't think it's out of the question. True, it'd take a decent attendant (or 2) an extra 3-5 seconds to properly check the extra row. But, let's not forget the geniuses who sit on the bicycle seat when they lock the train. They have to unlock that section of 2 rows, and then re-check both rows. I'd assume that row 7 is by itself. What that'd mean is if someone in row 7 is sitting, they only have to recheck that row, and not have to worry about checking row 8.
From your experiences with Iron Wolf, does that happen on a regular basis? Because from all the times I've ridden Mantis, it seems to be a big problem there.
According to rcdb, Mantis's ride time is 2:40, as opposed to Iron Wolf's 2:00. I will admit that I don't think the extra row would contribute a full 40 seconds, but 20-30 is not unreasonable, given the design of the restraints. The other 10-20 seconds is probably due to CF's better-safe-than-sorry approach to operational procedure (which I personally believe is a good thing)
So I guess I'm saying that after more thought, you may be partially right - CP's operational procedures may be slowing the ride crew down a bit, but not to the extreme that it seemed (to me) that you were implying.
*** Edited 1/5/2005 7:30:52 AM UTC by dannerman***
coasterdude318 said:
There was a significant amount of stacking with five trains. What I figured was with four trains TTD could operate with only minimal stacking (less than 30 seconds or so between advances/dispatches). Therefore, what I figured out was that four trains was "maximum" (in terms of capacity).
Ok, this has nothing to do with what you know or don't know. This has to do with what you witnessed on a given operating day. I'm saying it appeared the fifth train helped the day I was there. You're saying it didn't. Unfortunately, I'm not saying it like a giant asshole, peppering my phrases with "obviously" and "any idiot." However, we're still left with a matter of perception that has nothing to do with knowledge about blocking. See, this really doesn't have anything to do with what you absolutely know or don't know. This is just like, apparently, our rather different Great Adventure visits, when you saw the park being run with military precision and I saw it being run by trained baboons.
If the crew was a little too slow for the fifth train to make a difference, maybe on your visit they were getting up to speed? To be honest, I'm still hoping someone that actually knows what they are talking about will weigh in on this. You, unfortunately, don't. And mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying you're an asshole that acts like they know everything. Otherwise, you're just saying what you observed while waiting in line for the ride. Which is something that all of us who rode TTD got to observe, no expert asshole attitude needed.
I got your point, and I think it was a good one. Most coasters that have two trains operate with one in the station and one out on the course. Most coasters with three trains operate with one in the station, one in the first half of the course (pre-midcourse), and the third in the second (post-midcourse) half of the course.
I assume this is the educational part? I'm guessing because you used the words "pre-midcourse" and "post-midcourse." Regardless, would a good example of this kind of operaton be the third train I didn't see operating on Nitro during my visit? Sorry, cheap SFGadv dig.
<self evident crap snipped for brevity>The problem is that the course on TTD is so short (< 20 seconds) that, blocked for two trains, that gives crews roughly 45 seconds to load and 45 seconds to unload two trains each. From my observation, it simply isn't enough time, and the ride was always being held up waiting for the load crews to dispatch the two trains to the pre-launch area. Without the fifth train, the capacity would have been identical. Two trains would dispatch to the prelaunch area while the other two would move from unload to load. Now, launched trains can proceed directly into the unload station rather than waiting in the holding brakes before. Thus, capacity remains essentially unchanged.
Thus, you are an asshole. Ok, wait. No. What I mean is, this is again you stating an observation as fact. Are you concluding that it's not possible to run TTD with 5 trains that would make it no different from 4? Or simply wasn't happening, in your observation, during your visits?
<ironically, I'm snipping "the short answer" for brevity>If stacking occurs because a crew cannot hit interval and trains are waiting for a slow crew, then the excess trains are not helping capacity.
Hmm... now, I sincerely try not to think about this stuff. I just like riding roller coasters and notice when some parks have horrid, slow moving lines (like Great Adventure and Magic Mountain). But with that disclaimer stated - Your statement doesn't really work. Well, you're statement is true, but the way you're implying it is false. I mean, your statement implies that if a train stacks for longer then say, 10 seconds that it's then not doing any good. Well that's not true at all. If I am forced to think about it, in 2 train operation, that second train is helping as long as it doesn't stack for the entire length of the course, plus average time for riders to exit. In three train operation, it can't stack for longer then half the length of the course plus average time for people exiting for it to be helpful. On a course between 2-3 minutes, that gives those underpaid teenagers at least 90 seconds to board and dispatch. And even if the crew can't get it together in those 90 seconds, it's still a good idea to run at maximum capacity to get them up to speed.
Ok, on to Dragster. Again, I'm winging this because noone that was smarter then you or me jumped in so I have to go from what I observed. What we want ideally is for 2 trains to leave the station and to have two trains coming right in to load up more victims, I mean riders. The fifth train, it seems to me, guarantees that there is always two trains sliding right in behind the two trains that are leaving. Running four trains, it would seem to me that there would be times where you would need to wait for the second train to come in, when really, you want the pairs moving together all the time.
rdreaming said:
Ok. Here I am. A grown man in my living room. Arguing with two teenagers. Breath in. Breathe out.
Now that is some funny stuff! :)
rdreaming(if that is your real name. Oh, yeah. That was funny). If you are refering to me and nate as 2 teenagers, or if you are just referring to either of us, you're (again, like so many times before) wrong in your assumption that we are in our teens. Both nate and myself are Full Grown men. The difference between us and you? We can act like it. I admit that I choose not to most of the time, but that is besides the point. You've yet to prove you can.
You keep saying you wish someone would come in who is more knowledgeable than nate and weigh in. The fact is, there are plenty of people on this board that are more knowledable than both he and I. They haven't chimed in as usual when someone is wrong. Oh, maybe that is because nate knows what he is talking about and you don't. I would be lying if I didn't think, like you, that nate can get quite arrogant at times. Hey, thats coming from me, who admits to being an arrogant snob. The difference between nate and you? Nate hasn't had to resort to foul language to get his point across, he has quite a handle on the english language so as not to have to resort to that sort of thing in an intelligent conversation. You seem to lack that capacity.
Do you want your kids seeing @$$ hole every other words? Well, you use it freely here, maybe you use it around kids as well. At least when we use inuendo, kids don't pick that up that read the board, and if they do, they're old enough to understand it.
Talk about arrogance. I doubt very much you know anything about nate's anal area, and if you do, I wouldn't be admitting it in every other word like you seem to be doing here. Congrats on making enemies in just 40some posts. Even green_raptor_6, CPO/CPG, and Pancake boy went longer than that.
Jeesh!
Fate is the path of least resistance.
A. In the last ten years many amusement parks changed the operating system on their rides from manual to automatic. Meaning, all the breaking is done by the ride operation system, not the ride operators. This slows down dispatch times, because the automatic system does not allow the ride operators to break rides on their pace, but on a continual system. This makes rides safer, but a bit slower on dispatch.
B. With the recent string of accidents, especially on Intamin coasters many ride operators are doing a bit slower, but possibly more thorough job. Double checking restraints, taking some more time on dispatchs just to make sure they are safely operating the rides. These folks are made aware of recent tradgedy and want to ensure they don't do anything wrong.
I noticed dispatch times down at all parks this summer and talking to some friends in the industry I heard that safety (which is always the most important) has been pushed way above dispatch times, to almost crazy level (which is good).
Mantis has always had a slow dispatch, I really don't think it is the crew, I would blame the restraint system.
Antuan said:
Heh..the drama quotient of these boards are unseasonably high.
Yeah--and after reading and posting too long, everyone's monthlies start to synch up!
-CO
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
TeknoScorpion said:
Dannerman-my bad, I thought the 245 posts was directed to rdreaming, not you. I can argue with you just fine, you don't have an attitude. My appoligies, I was talking to rdreaming.
So me and you 2 are just gonna keep doing this dance all day, eh? I'm glad none of us have taxing jobs...
rdreaming(if that is your real name. Oh, yeah. That was funny).
Thank you, I thought it was at the time. But it helps if you think of Peter Sellers saying it in Dr. Strangelove as you're doing it in your head ("Well Captain Bat Guano, if that is your real name-").
If you are refering to me and nate as 2 teenagers, or if you are just referring to either of us, you're (again, like so many times before) wrong in your assumption that we are in our teens.
It was more an insult then an assumption.
I keep being accused of being wrong by you 2 when all I've generally said was statements of opinion. Ok, here are some absolutely wrong statements for you, so you can honestly say I came on here and said a lot of wrong stuff:
* Magnum is sinking. I swear, my cousin works at Cedar Point sweeping goose crap. He told me. Plus, I have these photos taken from 5 years ago and now that totally prove it.
* The length of your track record has a direct correlation to the length of your penis
* All models of Batman the Ride were built by TOGO.
You both seem to really get off on "how much you know." Lighten up. Even if you know the world, your still left with a thread that's about opinion and observation. Drop the attitude.
Both nate and myself are Full Grown men.
Is this a reference to your penises? And their current state? Cuz I'm creeped out now.
I would be lying if I didn't think, like you, that nate can get quite arrogant at times. Hey, thats coming from me, who admits to being an arrogant snob.
Snobs really piss me off. Which is, I think, what is rubbing me the wrong way about you 2, and compelling me get into this mega-*****fest with you.
Do you want your kids seeing @$$ hole every other words? Well, you use it freely here, maybe you use it around kids as well. At least when we use inuendo, kids don't pick that up that read the board, and if they do, they're old enough to understand it.
If someone is unable, as a parent, to teach their that they shouldn't parrot everything they see on the internet and on television and in movies, then their complete failure as a parent is so not my problem as an adult who uses crude language. (also, if the site moderators/owners didn't want the word asshole here, you'd see ******* instead of asshole).
lata, jeremy
--who doesnt want his "monthly" synched with anyone :(
rdreaming said:
Ok. Here I am. A grown man in my living room. Arguing with two teenagers.
As stated above, I am not a teenager (a simple check of my profile should reveal that information, but perhaps that's too much work for you). The only person acting like a child in this thread is you, and that's more than obvious.
Ok, this has nothing to do with what you know or don't know. This has to do with what you witnessed on a given operating day.
No, you misunderstood. It has to do with figuring it out mathematically. As I said before, the cycle time of TTD is simply not long enough to allow for five trains to operate without significant stacking. Even if crews were dispatching at insane rates (which they weren't), it's still not enough for a ride with a 30-second cycle time. Four trains is essentially capacity. The fifth may give an illusion of greater capacity, but it does nothing.
Unfortunately, I'm not saying it like a giant asshole, peppering my phrases with "obviously" and "any idiot."
No, you just pepper your posts with immature insults and personal attacks. Your most recent post is really a gem - pure genius. Nothing says "mature" more than hurling jokes about penis size.
If the crew was a little too slow for the fifth train to make a difference, maybe on your visit they were getting up to speed?
No, because as I said, it has little to do with the crew and a lot to do with the cycle being too short. If the crew suddenly became magic and could load a train in fifteen seconds, then yes, six trains could work. Unfortunately, that's just not going to happen.
To be honest, I'm still hoping someone that actually knows what they are talking about will weigh in on this. You, unfortunately, don't.
What I mean is, this is again you stating an observation as fact. Are you concluding that it's not possible to run TTD with 5 trains that would make it no different from 4? Or simply wasn't happening, in your observation, during your visits?
What I'm stating is that after observing the ride in action, I concluded it was not possible to operate the ride in a way that a fifth train would help capacity. That's not stating an observation as fact, it's using an observation to draw a conclusion.
now, I sincerely try not to think about this stuff. I just like riding roller coasters
After seeing your arguments, I'd recommend not trying to think about them. It's too much for you.
I mean, your statement implies that if a train stacks for longer then say, 10 seconds that it's then not doing any good.
No, that's not what I said. I said "significant" stacking. If there's significant stacking, the other train is most likely not helping. You can't compensate for a poor crew by throwing on another train. If you want to improve capacity, you need to speed up your crew. What it inevitably all comes down to is dispatch times, as that's the only way you can accurately calculate capacity. If a train sits on the brakes for 45 seconds or more, it's the crew that needs work.
If I am forced to think about it, in 2 train operation, that second train is helping as long as it doesn't stack for the entire length of the course
Well, that's incorrect, because in two-train operation, a train can't stack for the entire length of the course. As soon as a train leaves the station to proceed through the course, the second train moves into the station.
On a course between 2-3 minutes, that gives those underpaid teenagers at least 90 seconds to board and dispatch. And even if the crew can't get it together in those 90 seconds, it's still a good idea to run at maximum capacity to get them up to speed.
Two things:
(1) Running more trains isn't going to make anyone move any faster. Again, you cannot compensate for a poor crew with another train.
(2) A good-to-decent crew should be able to unload and load in between 60 and 90 seconds. On most rides, if that dispatch interval is being met, stacking won't happen.
Again, I'm winging this because noone that was smarter then you or me jumped in so I have to go from what I observed.
Who would you like to jump in that would make you understand? What kind of qualifications would make someone "smarter than me" and more knowledgable in this situation?
What we want ideally is for 2 trains to leave the station and to have two trains coming right in to load up more victims, I mean riders.
Right, but with TTD's short cycle is just isn't possible to accompish that because it means you have to dispatch two trains every 40-45 seconds. Outside of a Disney park (where restraints aren't even checked and seatbelts don't exist), that's not going to happen. In addition to that, because TTD operates in pairs of trains, a fifth train only seems to screw up the system. It re-pairs different trains together beteen the unload station and the load station, and thus the second train in each pair ends up having to wait (stack) for an additional cycle until another pair arrives. Again, a fifth train gives an illusion of capacity only.
I keep being accused of being wrong by you 2 when all I've generally said was statements of opinion.
Not exactly. You've argued some basics of capacity and blocking that you don't understand. For instance, earlier in this thread you essentially stated that an additional train ALWAYS helps capacity. That's simply not true. I don't believe I've accused you being wrong about any opinion. I see this is all very difficult for you to understand, much like the basics of blocking and capacity. You should read through it slowly a few times to make sure you understand before proceeding with another post filled with "asshole" and bad penis jokes.
-Nate
*** Edited 1/5/2005 8:15:54 PM UTC by coasterdude318***
The Mole said:
Can we drop the penis talk, dear god, this is coasterbuzz, not health week in P.E. class, lets get this back on track guys. :)
Since when have Monthlies been PENIS talk?
You don't need a maxi-pad for that--call a doctor. Now.
-CO
*** Edited 1/5/2005 8:20:54 PM UTC by CoastaPlaya***
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
You must be logged in to post
