Six Flags - Flagship Park?
rdreaming said:Here's a good bet! How many trains will Great Adventure run on Kingda Ka one year after it opens on a slow day? And how long will the line be on that slow day? My bet is 1-2 trains/90 minutes+ line. On a slow day, a year after opening. I'll actually bet cash on that one. Remember, this is a park that now has long lines as part of their plan to make a profit, so they can sell line cutting passes.
How does that have anything to do with here? We're discussing maximum usage of trains. A slow day has nothing to do with that. I may just not be getting what you're saying, but I don't see how that helps your argument at all. Infact, to me, it dosen't have anything to do with it.
Four trains seems like plenty to me. If TTD is running 5 trains with the stacking that goes with it (yes, I saw it when I was there), then capacity and dispatch times for 4 trains would have suited them just as well. Capacity does go down when you have a crew that is loading as fast as possible, but that 5th train is causing a few seconds to stack. You can have comparable capacity with 1 less train and much less stacking. Thats just simple logic. But like was said, Trains aren't the only thing that determines stacking.
I don't see why Kingda Ka, with a totally different setup for loading and unloading needs more than 4 trains. Sure, SFI could have bought an extra one for a spare, but trains cost a ton o money, and they're already overspending for a company in such debt anyhow.
Besides, with Ka's layout, even if they had 5 or 6 trains, I don't see how it would work. It looks like the blocking is different. They have 2 stations, mind you, and it takes a couple seconds to move the switch track, making Ka a much different system than TTD. Why are we still arguing about this?;)
Fate is the path of least resistance.
rdreaming said:
Written with such confidence.
Damn right. I'll tell you right now that I do know what I'm talking about. You seem to suggest you don't.
However, once again, why would Cedar Point run 5 trains if it made no difference what so ever?
I don't know. If the crew could move fast enough, a fifth (and sixth) train may make a difference. However, 45 seconds generally isn't long enough. And remember, Mantis ran three trains for several years before it was decided a third wasn't worth it. I also might add that with decent crews, Mantis should be able to operate three trains flawlessly. If SFGAm can run Iron Wolf without stacking, CP should be able to operate three on Mantis without stacking.
I'm sure, however, that Six Flags would love to have people believe that more trains don't make an appreciable difference on a rides capacity.
I highly doubt Six Flags cares at all about what people perceive capacity to be. However, you obviously continue to miss the point. More trains does not necessarily mean more capacity. You could block Millennium Force for eight trains, but that doesn't mean capacity is going to increase.
Here's a good bet! How many trains will Great Adventure run on Kingda Ka one year after it opens on a slow day? And how long will the line be on that slow day? My bet is 1-2 trains/90 minutes+ line.
90 minutes on a "slow day?" LOL! Every time I've been to SFGAdv on "slow days," they've run most of the rides at or near capacity, and the longest wait has been about 15 minutes. To suggest that SFGAdv would run Kingda Ka with three trains sitting on the transfer is ridiculous. My guess is that SFGAdv will never run less than two trains, and remember that even with those two trains, Kingda Ka should be able to match Storm Runner in capacity.
Rollergator: I highly doubt Cedar Point bought a sixth train for TTD for "unlikely" situations alone. After all, the only parks I can think of that own more trains than necessary are those that are open year-round (KBF, IOA, BGT). More likely is that Cedar Point expected six trains could be used efficiently, but in reality it just doesn't work for that ride.
-Nate
TeknoScorpion said:
rdreaming said:Here's a good bet! How many trains will Great Adventure run on Kingda Ka one year after it opens on a slow day? And how long will the line be on that slow day? My bet is 1-2 trains/90 minutes+ line. On a slow day, a year after opening. I'll actually bet cash on that one. Remember, this is a park that now has long lines as part of their plan to make a profit, so they can sell line cutting passes.How does that have anything to do with here? We're discussing maximum usage of trains.
Actually, TeknoScorpion (if that is your real name), they (you, in fact) were talking about which park was Six Flags' "flagship park." Initially. It's called a discussion, where I believe one is allowed to break out and talk about other things, as how this thread is progressing is showing. My aside however, does reference my larger point, before "coasterdude" (if that is his real name) got his panties in a bunch and chose to challenge one specific statement I made regarding SFGadv being cheap bastads by only getting 4 trains for Kingda Ka while TTD had 6 and whether that would affect line length and speed (whew!). My statement above, I feel, has relevance, because I'm suggesting that Six Flags parks, as a whole, tend to run their parks in a way that tends to create longer, slower moving lines then, say, Paramount Parks, or Cedar Fair parks, or your average indie park. And yes, I'm implying that buying 4 trains for Kingda Ka is part of that trend.
(Coasterdude, before you state this again, I realize (thanks to you) that there's a different loading scheme going on for Kingda Ka. But it doesn't really change my point. With only 4 trains, how often do you think they'll be able to run all 4 at once after a little wear and tear settles in?)
As for some people's very interesting suggestions that one can have "too many trains" on a coaster and that having too many trains can "make the line actually move slower." You're right. More trains create longer lines. Up is down. Right is left. War is peace. *** Edited 1/3/2005 11:24:56 PM UTC by rdreaming***
Educate yourself about blocking and capacity before attempting to continue a discussion about something you very obviously do not understand.
-Nate (who says the slowest lines I've stood in have been at Paramount parks)
coasterdude318 said:
rdreaming said:
Written with such confidence.Damn right. I'll tell you right now that I do know what I'm talking about. You seem to suggest you don't.
I'm suggesting you are arrogant and probably speak as if you know what you are talking about on probably any topic that comes up. I'm always willing to say I'm not sure what I'm talking about in the hopes of learning something new in a discussion. Unless, of course, the person is an ass that thinks they know everything. Hope that was a bit clearer for you.
I also might add that with decent crews, Mantis should be able to operate three trains flawlessly. If SFGAm can run Iron Wolf without stacking, CP should be able to operate three on Mantis without stacking.
Yeah, those CP crews are slow, lazy, suckass bastads! Gosh, I wish they were more like Great Adventure or Magic Mountain employees! (Up is down, right is left, war is peace, more trains create longer lines. I'm beginning to figure you guys out now!)
I highly doubt Six Flags cares at all about what people perceive capacity to be.
Is Six Flags a guy? I didn't realize that. Is it the old guy?
Regardless, it would be unfortunate if Six Flags, as a company, was as arrogant as you about people's perception of capacity. After all, a god awful, long, slow moving line is hardly only noticed by professional ride enthusiasts like Paul Rueben. Everyone notices when a park runs their rides like ****.
However, you obviously continue to miss the point. More trains does not necessarily mean more capacity. You could block Millennium Force for eight trains, but that doesn't mean capacity is going to increase.
I see now we're jumping into the "mega thread", "misrepresentation" thing that assholes on forums do. I'm sorry, 5 trains on TTD is not like 8 trains on MF. And again, I'm sorry, but CP owning 6 trains for Dragster is a good thing.
90 minutes on a "slow day?" LOL! Every time I've been to SFGAdv on "slow days," they've run most of the rides at or near capacity, and the longest wait has been about 15 minutes.
Ok, you're either lying, really lucky, or, most likely, choosing to have a very selective memory. That's cool. We've both been to Great Adventure, and we're saying near opposite things. One of us is probably lying to desperately make a point. I guess you'll have to let others decide who after they go to SFGadv next season for Kingda Ka and see what it's like. ;)
To suggest that SFGAdv would run Kingda Ka with three trains sitting on the transfer is ridiculous.
Wow. I am so going to quote you on that one. This is as good as the guy saying that more trains create slower lines.
Yeah, those CP crews are slow, lazy, suckass bastads! Gosh, I wish they were more like Great Adventure or Magic Mountain employees!
Did I say CP crews were slow? No. The only crew I have a problem with is the Mantis crew which, year after year, manages to stack two trains on a ride that has the potential to run three. Meanwhile, one of those "slooooow Six Flags parks" manages to run Iron Wolf at maximum capacity without stacking.
Is Six Flags a guy? I didn't realize that. Is it the old guy?
I don't know; you referred to Six Flags as a single subject before I did (I highly doubt Six Flags cares at all..."). Nice try at a concealed insult though!
Regardless, it would be unfortunate if Six Flags, as a company, was as arrogant as you about people's perception of capacity.
If you think people will see Kingda Ka running four trains and say, "This cheap park should have purchased two more trains like Cedar Point, those cheap bastards!!" then you're perceptions are even more ridiculous than I originally thought.
I'm sorry, 5 trains on TTD is not like 8 trains on MF. And again, I'm sorry, but CP owning 6 trains for Dragster is a good thing.
Of course it is. I wasn't drawing any comparison between the two. I was pointing out that more trains does not guarantee higher capacity, despite what you erroneously believe. Now, explain to me how six trains on Dragster is a good thing - how it was worth it for CP to buy six trains. Because from what I can see, it didn't help Cedar Point in the least.
Ok, you're either lying, really lucky, or, most likely, choosing to have a very selective memory.
Okay, now I see how your argument strategy works. When someone disagrees with you, simply accuse them of lying, and then you have a case. Please. When have you ever seen a 90-minute wait on a "slow day"? That's what I thought.
Now...show me one ride that SFGAdv runs at a quarter capacity. I dare you.
You think you sound intelligent with your little jabs and quips, but really you're just showing everone how little you really know about how capacity works.
-Nate
*** Edited 1/3/2005 11:52:53 PM UTC by coasterdude318***
coasterdude318 said:
How often does SFGAdv run just one train on B:TR due to "wear and tear?" How often do you see two trains on Medusa or Nitro because of "wear and tear?" Your points are ridiculous.
You've never seen Medusa or Nitro running 2 train? Are you on crack? I can say pretty comfortably that Nitro was 2 train during my visit in September, and the line was over an hour. I'm also fairly certain that Batman was single train that day, considering the length of the line in comparison to the amount of people, but I never rode it to find out. Now, whether this was due to "wear and tear" I don't know. What's going to probalby piss you off is, you don't know either. No matter how much you'd like to pretend to. Of course, it would be impossible to prove such a statement one way or the other, unless you were someone that worked there. Again, I'm saying owning extra trains is a good thing. Are you saying it's a bad thing, coasterdude? Hey, maybe if Magic Mountain had a few extra trains they wouldn't have been running single train on Riddlers Revenge and Batman the Ride during my visit in the middle of summer.
Educate yourself about blocking and capacity before attempting to continue a discussion about something you very obviously do not understand.
Do you have many friends? I'm just curious. Because with statements like this and the previous one, I'm going to assume you're a lonely man. Or your 15. Probably the former, though. I tend to picture you saying the above statement in the Simpsons "comics guy" voice.
I'm going to bet you get into lots of asshole fights on this forum with people who, like me, were just trying to state an opinion that you decided to disagree with. Am I getting warm here?
I'm not even entirely certain how I've proven to you that I'm (puts on Simpsons Comics guy voice) "ignorant of blocking and capacity." After all, I'm simply declining to get into that with you, since my point was that Great Adventure manages their parks horribly, runs their coasters at less then full capacity consistently, and that buying 4 trains for Kingda Ka suggested they were cheap bastads. Disagree? Ok. But I don't really see you proving me wrong here. I just see you acting like an ass.
Look, let's just wait until next season and see how Kingda Ka does and how it's operated. And let's see, on here, how first time visitors react to Great Adventure? Deal?
Oh right, even if they run it single train you'll just deny that it ever happened.
As for Kingda Ka - I agree - it'll probably be rare when you see both loading stations running (due to staffing), and thus you'll only see 2 trains running, regardless how long the line is.
As for SFGAdv - I noticed that in 2004, and only in 2004, things have gotten a lot better. I've noticed ride tracks get repainted for the first time in over a decade. I've noticed shade structures go up over queue lines built in perpetual sunshine. I've noticed signs that say "the lines are short in the park - QueueBot will not be operating today" on the slow days. I've noticed that S:UF actually ran 2 trains, even on slow days in June! (unlike in 2003 when it was an hour wait and running one train, and then they decided to close the ride 15 minutes early because a "thunderstorm was on the radar"). Yes, SFGAdv has a long way to go - but they've improved so much in 2004. I'm hoping that next year they try having a little more staffing, and then my above comments will not apply.
So, coasterdude, if your comments are about 2004, I can believe you. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but I cannot. I go to the park several times every year, and your comments are simply untrue from 2003 and earlier.
Again, I'm saying owning extra trains is a good thing. Are you saying it's a bad thing, coasterdude?
I didn't say it was a good thing or a bad thing. I said in some cases it's unnecessary (TTD, for instance) and has no real effect on the operation of the ride.
I really have to wonder, rdreaming ("if that really is your real name"...LOL), why you're so concerned about my personal life. Honestly. If you can't debate or argue with someone without resorting to personal attacks, it's pretty obvious how strong your arguments are. You essentially came right out and admitted you don't understand capacity and blocking. So why do you continue to argue? You ask how it's been proven that you don't know what you're talking about. Really, how hasn't it been proven? The simple fact that you can't fathom how additional trains might not help capacity is proof enough.
Oh right, even if they run it single train you'll just deny that it ever happened.
WAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Grow up.
It's not the ride crew's fault that Mantis stacks on 2 trains. And the ride is NOT "designed" for 3 - it's blocked for 3.
Oh whatever. Make all the excuses for the crews you want; if a ride is blocked for three trains, it's designed for three trains (and vice versa). Once again, if Six Flags can efficiently operate a much shorter ride with the same restraints with two trains, why can't Cedar Point do it? Because the Mantis crew sucks, and it has since my first visit to the Point. The Iron Wolf crew could operate Mantis with three trains and minimal stacking. Blame the trains, blame the design, blame the restraints all you want, but if other parks can do it, then why is CP excused?
As for Kingda Ka - I agree - it'll probably be rare when you see both loading stations running (due to staffing), and thus you'll only see 2 trains running
You don't know that. It's very possible that Kingda Ka could still be blocked to run three trains with one station (and that's assuming they will only use one station most of the time, which I don't agree with).
So, coasterdude, if your comments are about 2004, I can believe you. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but I cannot. I go to the park several times every year, and your comments are simply untrue from 2003 and earlier.
I visited SFGAdv in 2002 and this past season. Operations were actually slightly worse this past season compared to 2002, but it was earlier in the season and there was an issue that was out of the park's control. In 2002 I witnessed near-perfect operations: three trains on Nitro, two trains on Medusa (with walk-on conditions), two trains on GASM (again, a walk-on), and everything else running at or near capacity. People used to rave and rave about the excellent operations on Nitro (dispatching one train as soon as the other crested the lift), and that's exactly what I witnessed. So I'm sorry, but my observations are certainly not "untrue". Plus, there's an obvious bias there that I think may be getting in the way.
-Nate
*** Edited 1/4/2005 4:22:00 AM UTC by coasterdude318***
If the park runs this year the way they did last, I believe Kinda Ka will run just fine. Either way, with short launch coasters, more trains really just give the illusion of better capacity. There can still be just *one* train on the cuircut at any given time.
Unless your idea of capacity is sitting on the brake run, or loading in the station. *** Edited 1/4/2005 4:55:50 AM UTC by DWeaver***
What I did witness was one train on S:UF when there was a 60-minute line. 2 trains on Nitro when we wait 50 minutes.
As for your Mantis ride crew argument - do you think that Mantis crew is a full-time career? The crew (as at just about all parks) is almost completely different every year. You may have some people who spend 2, or (rarely) 3 years at the same ride, but not normally - especially internationals. The point is that if the problems still exist amongst all the crews, it's obviously NOT a crew problem. As for Six Flags operating better, I don't know their standup coaster well enough (and something tells me you don't either), but it's possible that the restraints are not exactly the same. Systems evolve. Just look at TTD and KK restraints.. completely different for almost identical ride.
I hate to burst your bubble, but there's no "bias", obvious or concealed. Do I believe CF run their parks better? yes. That's because it's a fact. That doesn't make me (or anyone) biased. However, by your logic, it seems that you have an "obvious bias".. either Pro-SF or Anti-CF, I can't tell, but it seems that in your "arguments" CF can do no right, and SF can do no wrong.
Your opinions/observations are based on 2 visits? Quite possibly you caught them on a (rare) good day in 2002. My opinions/observations are based on 4 visits in 2004, 6 visits in 2003, 4 visits in 2002, 2 visits in 2001, 1 visit in 2000, 1 visit in 1999, 8 visits in 1998, 6 visits in 1997, and more before that which I cannot remember the exact number or years, but close to once a year since the late eighties. That's a total of 32 countable visits in the past 8 years.
The only park I know better than Great Adventure is Dorney, and it's SOLELY because I live about 5-10 minute drive from the park (depending on traffic).
I realize that crews change year to year; I am not an idiot. It just seems that the Mantis crew always sucks, which leads me to believe it is a training and/or procedural problem. Your suggestion that I am not familiar with Iron Wolf is unfounded and ill-informed to the extreme, and again points to how unfounded most of your (and rdreaming's) arguments are. I have had countless experiences with Iron Wolf every year for the past five years. As I said, Iron Wolf has identical restraints. Have B&M floorless restraints, for instance, changed at all since 1999? No.
I hate to burst your bubble, but there's no "bias", obvious or concealed.
Really? It sure seems like you're all up on Dorney Park to me, even to the extent of defending Dorney against Six Flags to ridiculous extremes. That's fine, more power to you, but it shows. Despite your suggestions, I don't have a bias, and I certainly am not of the belief that CF can do no right. I simply tend to think that CF parks are a little overrated while Six Flags parks get more than their share of complaints and gripes from the enthusiass crowd. It is most certainly not a "fact" that CF runs their parks better. That can very easily be debated on many levels.
Finally, I never said my observations are based on two visits. What I said was that I made visits to the park in 2002 and 2004. I did not visit prior to 2002, and I made no visits in 2003. There were more than two visits made, however. I also note that the fact you are able to list exactly how many visits you've made to SFGAdv in the past eight years is a little creepy, and a little too toolish for me.
-Nate
*** Edited 1/4/2005 8:32:59 AM UTC by coasterdude318***
"to the extreme".. hmm.. who's arguments are "unfounded" that you have to resort to exaggerating?
Did you actually operate Iron Wolf? Did you actually operate Mantis? Unless you can say yes to both statements, you cannot say with absolute certainty that the restraints are identical. You can say that they appear identical, but the mechanics/electronics under the hood may be slightly different. I do not claim to know that they are different - I never have, because I don't know. My point is that you don't know either. You have your assumptions, yes. but you don't know. You seem to have a problem in realizing this. rdreaming and I realize our limitations, and we're not going to pompously go around claiming to know everything when we don't. You should try it sometime - people might actually listen to your arguments. Same thing with if B&M Floorless restraints have changed at all since 1999 - Do you work for B&M (in particular in regards to design of the Floorless Coaster technology)? Unless you can say yes, you don't know. You can have your assumptions, but you can't say that you KNOW. You can say "...as far as I know." but NOT that you know.
You know what I find creepy and toolish? How you just happen to be the only one who's noticed SF's "near-perfect operations" on a consistent basis. Yes, they have had good days every now and then, but remember: even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then.
and since you seem to insist upon personal attacks (because your arguments are lacking) I might as well address this comment of yours:
WAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Grow up.
You should try it some time.
Jeff, isn't it time this horribly off-topic post be closed?
As for my supposed "personal attacks," where are they? All I said is that you have an obvious CF bias. If that's a personal attack in your eyes, so be it, but it's you who is doing most of the exaggerating.
Oh, and if you think this argument is "horribly off-topic" and don't want to have anything to do with it anymore, why don't you go away? Nobody's forcing you to post.
-Nate
*** Edited 1/4/2005 9:42:04 AM UTC by coasterdude318***
dannerman said:I hate to burst your bubble, but there's no "bias", obvious or concealed. Do I believe CF run their parks better? yes. That's because it's a fact. That doesn't make me (or anyone) biased.
The TRUE fact is that CF folk are people just like anyone else. They strategize, they plan, they make big mistakes like anyone else.
SF's mistake was catering to coaster dorks...the penny-pinchingest, most ungrateful, most expensive to cater to buncha people on the planet. Huge mistake. CF's latest big mistake was purchasing SFWOA and believing people would come running just because they're the 'Cedar Point' people and therefore better.
How else do you explain a drop of over half the attendance? A loss of--count 'em--one million people. All...their...fault.
-'Playa
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
I have full confidence that this year's admission decrease and new water attractions will be a big help and hopefully push attendance back over the million mark. They have a good group of people running the show in Aurora and I doubt that they are going to just sit and watch the park fail.
Ray P. (who is probably completely wrong in his assessment... but thought he'd throw it out there anyway :))
coasterdude318 said:
Any idiot can see the restraints on Iron Wolf and Mantis are identical - certainly not different enough as to have any effect in loading times. Honestly, your arguments get more ridiculous every time your post.
Wow, it's amazing how much I dislike you just from seeing these posts on this thread. If you're unable to see how statements like the one above make you come off like a gigantic asshole... may I suggest reading them again?
You both have the same pathetic argument strategy: accuse the person you're arguing with of either lying or of not having any knowledge about the subject (whether that person does or doesn't).
Actually, you've accused me numerous times now of not having knowledge about the subject of Great Adventure sucking. Specifically, you wanted to derail the conversation into one concerning Dragster's capacity. Which I imagine was to distract from the fact that Great Adventure is one of the worst operated parks in the country.
In reference to this, we are left with subjective experiences. I visited Great Adventure twice in 2004 and came to this conclusion. Clearly, you disagree based on your visits. I'm not sure what to say past that. It's your manner and tone in how you disagree with people that makes you such a gigantic asshole. Worse, you haven't said one educational thing in the slightest throughout this whole thread, while continuing to state "how much you know" and how little everyone that disagrees with you knows.
You've been here less than a month and have racked up 245 posts, most of the useless. Don't act like you're an expert on me or on how this forum works in general. I am hardly the only one to have noticed good operations at SFGAdv.As for my supposed "personal attacks," where are they?
Ok, this is kind of funny. Read the first paragraph, then read the question that begins the next paragraph. Were you unable to see that the first paragraph is filled with personal attacks because your head is up your ass? May I suggest pulling it out?
You know, it's possible to have entertaining discussions without threads dissolving like this. And I hope you realize it's utterly dissolved. I'm becoming more sure you're the guy where I witnessed a thread here about the Comet where you completely derailed the thread, in a very similar way to this one, simply because you disagreed with the opinions of others.
If I have the energy later, I'll placate you and start a thread devoted to the 5 trains that run on TTD and whether the fifth train helps capacity. Some pretty dumb stuff has been said on this topic in this thread, and it would be curious to really explore this more in a discussion. But then again, do I really want to continue a dialogue with a giant asshole like you? No, I don't.
Have fun vigilantly defending Six Flags parks against the evil forces of reality, common sense, and basic observation. Just please stay on Coasterbuzz, I need other places to go to discuss this stuff.
Oh, and the discussion has changed from SF's flagship park (which we've been told is SFGAdv regardless) to TTD vs. Kingda Ka in terms of stacking and such. Since that was what we are discussing, a scenario of having a slow day @ SFGAdv has nothing to do with maximum blocking and train usage.
You seem to act like you know alot, but then you can't back that up. I'm inclined to agree with 245 posts in like a month or two, maybe you should sit back and restrain your posts.
Oh, and your poor attempt at humor was terrible. This coming from the resident unfunny one himself: Stop Trying to be Funny.
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