Six Flags - Flagship Park?

People puking makes a ride closed for about 20 minutes. The photo I showed is for rides that were simply closed that day.

So you're saying for your 10 visits "Movie Town Water Effect" was open every time? The ferris wheel? The sky ride? The parachute? Freefall? I'm sorry, I just don't believe you.

SFOT, SFFT, and SFGam seem to be anomalies in the chain. I can tell you that most of the other parks have very similar problems, which is what led me to suspect it was not a problem limited to specific, regional management.

What days did you go rdreaming? FRom what i saw sfgadv also has staffing problems too. I went on Saturdays and sundays. I am not lying when i said all those rides were open.

I easily went over 20 times this past season and yes, there were horrific days that I'm sure they were not very proud of but the majority of my visits were VERY pleasant and most, if not nearly all rides were operating. In fact, there were also some visits in which they did have staff at the ride entrance informing guests why the ride is not operating so I know they recognize the importance of such an idea.

rdreaminig, I will admit, while that photo is somewhat funny, its also rather sad. But I will agree with majortom1981 in that this would not be a good example of the entire operating season.

Still, that is no excuse and I hope they improve situations like this one to turn Gadv into a true destination park. some day...

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rdreaming said:

Cedar Point, a park with less annual attendance then Great Adventure, designed and outfitted Top Thril Dragster with the potential and ability to run 6 trains. Six Flags, with Kingda Ka, designed and outfitted Kingda Ka with 4 trains.

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Okay, but...

Has Cedar Point ever gotten TTD to run with all six trains? From what I understand (and I am not a CP fanboy, so I'm not an expert) TTD has only had five trains running at once (or at least consistently).

From my own personal experience with TTD, it didn't seem that any more than four trains worked to increase capacity at all. To me, it seemed that it worked fine with four trains, but any more resulted in stacking.

Also, it's fair to note that SFGAdv paid for Kingda Ka to have a dual station like Storm Runner, which works very well for that particular ride. I think it's verry possible Kingda Ka's capacity could reach, or even surpass, TTD's capacity with equal crews on both.

-Nate

Ahh yes Nate let's keep in mind the dual station design on KK,but let's also keep in mind the poor track record SF has when actually staffing both stations.

Batwing,S:UF & X-Flight(pre-CF) are 3 prime examples of potentially high capacity rides being run at only half capacity on a regular basis.

What's your point? Your post is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but thanks for playing!

-Nate

Batwing, S:UF, and X-Flight aren't record breaking coasters either, are they?

But like nate said, it has nothing to do with the point he was making.

I think it deserves to be noted that at least SF had the decency to post all those rides that were closed. They could have just ignored it.

Also, with KK having a dual-station, you're forgetting - TTD has a dual [loading] station as well - they just have them in-line so as to avoid any possible train-going-off-the-switch-track problems (the only switch track is storage, which the trains are unloaded). My point is that, staffing wise, there's not really a big difference between TTD and KK. Actually, TTD might even require MORE staffing since there's a separate unloading station which does have to be staffed as well.

On a side note, I've heard that SR @ Hershey is quite efficient, but only until the hydraulics in the switch track overheat - then they have to essentially shut the ride down for 5-10 minutes to let it cool. I'd assume that they'd address it for future seasons/installations (ie KK) but still, there are potential capacity-killing problems KK may face that TTD does not.

But at CP in specific, they aren't really overly concerned about a couple employees to keep things running *optimally* in terms of capacity, ESP. on one of their "flagship rides"...

A *few* notable SF parks might routinely have the staff on hand to run a flyer or one of these stratas to capacity, but it's certainly not the majority...

bill, taking the wait-and-see approach with regards to KK staffing and throughput...that park could REALLY use some extra staff to help lines move efficiently. The ROI on KK *eventually* will depend heavily on its ability to send LOADS of people on the ride...;)

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coasterdude318 said:

From my own personal experience with TTD, it didn't seem that any more than four trains worked to increase capacity at all. To me, it seemed that it worked fine with four trains, but any more resulted in stacking.

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During my visit last season they ran TTD both days with 5 trains. I thought the fifth train certainly helped. Regardless of my impression, why else would they run a fifth train if it didn't help?

Also, even if they can't run with all 6, isn't it a good thing from an operations perspective to now have an extra train lying around (in case something goes wrong mid-season with one of the others)?

Not even so much if something goes wrong that they can't use a train, but to spread the hours of operation to keep wear-and-tear down. Thus wheel changes, etc. don't have to be done as often. Also, if a wheel change needs to be done mid-day, you just temporarily close the ride, bring the train off that needs it, put the other one on, and bingo - reopen the ride while maintenance changes the wheel in the holding areas (or wait until park close).

If there's any significant stacking (more than a few seconds), chances are the additional train(s) are not helping your capacity. The day I was there I noticed a surprising amount of stacking with five trains running. I figured that with four the stacking would be very minimal. Thus, from my observaion, the fifth train did not help capacity at all.

Regardless of the above, however, I think you missed my original point. You stated that "at least CP sprung for six trains." I pointed out that there's no need to spring for six trains if it doesn't help you at all. If your maximum capacity could be met with four trains, why buy the other two? CP obviously thought they could run six trains efficiently, but in reality it doesn't seem to happen. If they had known that, I highly doubt they would have purchased six trains.

Plus, I also pointed out that TTD and Kingda Ka have very different load/unload situations, and thus they aren't very comparable in that respect.

-Nate

Hmm.. I know this might be stupid, but I'll go out on a limb..

Logically, wouldn't it make sense that if there were no stacking, capacity could be improved? (if only by a miniscule amount). Because if there's no stacking at all, that means that they're moving the trains faster then they can load them (because they're not waiting for anything).

Follow my logic?

Which was Nate's point. Apparently [as opined by others] Cedar Point isn't able to operate the ride without stacking, therefore no need for the extra train.

No - Nate was saying that 4 trains is maximum because stacking exists at 5. No offense to him, but he was not able to notice if there were stacking at 4 or not. If not, 4 is not maximum. Adding the extra train may have only improved capacity by 5-10 people per hour, but it's still improved.

At that point, though, the voice of reason would question if the extra expense of even one train was worth 5-10 people per hour.

Correct my if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that TTD has 7 blocks and 6 trains. It never works having #Blocks-1 trains in RCT (where everything is perfect) so why would it work IRL? I believe that 5 is their maximum. In order to need a 6th train, there should have been an 8th block (going backwards: launch, prelaunch, load1, load2, unload1, unload2, holding1, holding2/reduction). That way you could actually launch both trains without needing to advance any other trains that are in the process of being loaded/unloaded.

There was a significant amount of stacking with five trains. What I figured was with four trains TTD could operate with only minimal stacking (less than 30 seconds or so between advances/dispatches). Therefore, what I figured out was that four trains was "maximum" (in terms of capacity).

I got your point, and I think it was a good one. Most coasters that have two trains operate with one in the station and one out on the course. Most coasters with three trains operate with one in the station, one in the first half of the course (pre-midcourse), and the third in the second (post-midcourse) half of the course.

Obviously, TTD is blocked a little differently. Essentially, it's easiest to think of it being blocked for three "trains." However, in this case each "train" is actually two trains that move together as one. The three general blocks, then, are (1) unload, (2) load, and (3) the course (the only place where two trains aren't really blocked together, as one is in the pre-launch area and one is on the course OR one is in the holding brakes before unload and the other is on the course behind it...which is why I think - but am not positive - that TTD probably has two holding brakes before the unload station).

The problem is that the course on TTD is so short (< 20 seconds) that, blocked for two trains, that gives crews roughly 45 seconds to load and 45 seconds to unload two trains each. From my observation, it simply isn't enough time, and the ride was always being held up waiting for the load crews to dispatch the two trains to the pre-launch area. Without the fifth train, the capacity would have been identical. Two trains would dispatch to the prelaunch area while the other two would move from unload to load. Now, launched trains can proceed directly into the unload station rather than waiting in the holding brakes before. Thus, capacity remains essentially unchanged.

That's the long answer to your question. The shorter answer is that maximum possible capacity (overlooking blocking) is reached whenever a crew can dispatch as soon as they're ready to. In more realistic terms, if a coaster is set up to allow trains to dispatch every 60-90 seconds, capacity will be maximized (assuming crews can keep up). If there's a minimal amount of stacking occurs when a train is waiting for the station block to clear (and the train in the station is waiting for the subsequent block to clear) , that's fine. If stacking occurs because a crew cannot hit interval and trains are waiting for a slow crew, then the excess trains are not helping capacity.

-Nate

At CP, the need for a 6th train on TTD is probably due to the LIKELY event that something will happen to one of those trains when they're "super-busy"...take one off, replace it, and you're still at max capacity...

Which is why I was SO amazed that SF decided to only purchase two trains for their latest beema flyers...what DO you do when one of them goes down on a Saturday in summer? A: Enjoy another one of our fine attractions - and people wonder why the enormous difference in stock price...;)

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coasterdude318 said:
If there's any significant stacking (more than a few seconds), chances are the additional train(s) are not helping your capacity.

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Written with such confidence. However, I don't think that's true. But, I'll avoid making definitive comments about issues I know absolutely nothing about.

However, once again, why would Cedar Point run 5 trains if it made no difference what so ever? After all, there is a coaster that Cedar Point doesn't run all it's trains on because excessive loading times lead to the extra train not making a difference (Mantis).

I'm sure, however, that Six Flags would love to have people believe that more trains don't make an appreciable difference on a rides capacity. It would explain their operational decisions at numerous parks on the bottom of the chain.

I realize you feel Six Flags has bought just the right amount of trains for Kingda Ka, and I imagine time will prove one of us right and one of us wrong.

Here's a good bet! How many trains will Great Adventure run on Kingda Ka one year after it opens on a slow day? And how long will the line be on that slow day? My bet is 1-2 trains/90 minutes+ line. On a slow day, a year after opening. I'll actually bet cash on that one. Remember, this is a park that now has long lines as part of their plan to make a profit, so they can sell line cutting passes.

And speaking of which, the one park where I saw all coasters running at maximum capacity in the Six Flags chain was SFOT. I guess because of that, and the excellent employees, I'll say SFOT is their flaghip park - whether they realize it or not...

Anyone who thinks trains alone solve capacity issues has never swung their feet idly from outside the station house on Fire or Ice Dragon. For a couple minutes.

And like it or not, SFGADV's the flagship park. Says who? SF brass. Publicly. Says when? November.

-'Playa

*** Edited 1/3/2005 6:13:24 PM UTC by CoastaPlaya***

LOL, 'Playa....I'll never forget the family in front of us in the Dragons' Lair carrying EVERYTHING they owned...the kitchen sink, boom box, projection TV, the works...

WHO on Earth let them in line that way? Beats me, but it certainly slowed down a dispatch somewhere along the way. Not like the lockers at *The Complex* aren't FREE or anything...

Coming to Orlando for a vacation? Leave the brain at home!

Cedar Fair and Paramount definitely understand capacity WAY better than your *average* SF park....thank goodness for SFoT and SFGAm, otherwise we might be led to believe the whole CHAIN is managed disastrously..;)

SF can CALL the NJ park their flagship if they want, but the Garden-State park needs to check out how well some of the OTHER big parks are run, both inside AND outside the chain...lead by following! :)
*** Edited 1/3/2005 7:13:22 PM UTC by rollergator***