Shapiro at it again?
I guess I side on the Gonch side of things in this arguement. I have $X to spend for a day and it's up to the place I am going to decide if they want $X or less than $X. Six Flags typically gets $X. But this year I voted customer service and did not buy a Six Flags pass so Cedar Fair and Hershey will be trying to get $X from me. Will they? Probably. If I want a drink while at a park I buy it as long as I don't have to go hit a ATM or use Credit. Credit would only be used at a park if I see something that I really like and didn't factor into my budget for the day. Only two parks so far have done that to me, Dollywood, Southern crafters ... need I say more, and Knoebels, when I bought the throw blanket that lays on my bed.
CP, for example, gives you more ride trips in a whole day than most SF parks for a little bit lower price. I still stand in line, but it's normally much less than I have at SF. The ride ops there practically run across the platforms, even me when I worked there.
I wouldn't mind paying more for food at SF if the line was shorter and the food was higher quality. What ever happened to "you get what you pay for"? I would consider fast food much higher in quality and price than most amusement park food.
By the way, I have one qualification egarding the appropriateness of higher admission prices at big parks. As someone mentioned earlier, its not enough to have the big rides. You should be able to get on enough rides during a day witout 2 and 3 hour waits.
Any park that expects you to pay extra to jump lines and which has extremely long waits otherwise is a very poor value and normally not worth a high admission price. It's those season pass holders at Six Flags that can get some reasonable value because they arent paying extra for admission after the first or second visit. Six Flags really needs to do more for those once a year visitors.
*** Edited 1/24/2007 1:06:55 AM UTC by Arthur Bahl***
Arthur Bahl
Lord Gonchar said:I still maintain that parks like KW or Knoebel's would change you $4 a drink in a second if they could, but they can't.
They COULD....once. There's the catch. You're not IN, say, Atlanta, New York, Chicago. You really DO need for people to come back and visit repeatedly. A four dollar soda is cool, if you can make ends meet seeing a customer at most once a year, without making alot of "friends" in the process.
Like you say, FOURTEEN roller coasters. Holy carp that's alot. I gotta get me there! ;)
But KW, KG, IB, HW (hey, I added one, hehe)...they survive without fourteen rollercoasters...in large part BECAUSE their customers are their friends...and you don't charge your friends four bucks for a soda...not unless there's liquor in it... ;)
They COULD....once. There's the catch. You're not IN, say, Atlanta, New York, Chicago. You really DO need for people to come back and visit repeatedly.
Exactly what I'm saying. These parks that keep coming up (HW, KW, Knoebels, and now IB) are NOT in the same boat as pretty much all the SF parks. That's why I don't understand why we keep going back to them. It's even less valid of a comparison than the amusement park/sporting event comparisons earlier in the thread. Aside from being amusement parks, there's really not a lot in common with the way they have to approach their customer base aside from the basics.
Free Drinks anyone?
Please don't make me do the math explaining how free drinks and parking aren't really free. Because if I do, I'm going to take it to the extreme and show you how those 'free' drinks you're required to cover at the gate might actually cost you more than drinks at other parks.
...its not enough to have the big rides. You should be able to get on enough rides during a day witout 2 and 3 hour waits.
Some of that is operations (in SF's case much of it may be), but dumb luck and crowds have just as much sway. I've seen lines just as long at other large parks this year (yes, CP is one) due to nothing more than a gazillion people showing up. Ironically, both trips to SF parks this years greeted us with walk-on conditions and re-rides at will.
But (and I'm moving along again here) the thing that gets me is how much the money thing keeps coming up. Oddly enough, I think it's the one thing you can't dispute. There is no right or wrong answer. A value to one person is a rip-off to another (see My, Matt's and Jeremy's different takes on dining out).
If you can't see the value in something (in this case SF's pricing) then why is the problem immediately on the other side of the fence?
There's an awful lot of people paying these prices. There's an awful lot of people buying food and drinks. There's an awful lot of people paying $15 to park. There's an awful lot of people standing in an extra line and shelling out an addition $30 for a Q-bot.
You know something I'll never bring myself to pay the price for? A cruise. I'm not dropping a couple grand to float on boat for a week. Just don't see the value.
Does that make the cruise line pricing wrong? Being as millions of people a year pay those prices to ride the big boats, I guess not. I just don't happen to see the value. It's not a service I'm willing to trade my money for.
I don't see why it's so hard to walk away from SF if you don't see the value. Unless, of course, you really wish you could have the product or service. Like if I really dug the idea of taking a cruise but couldn't justify the price, then I'd be pissed. "Why the hell do them there darn old cruise ship cost me so much money!" I'd yell. :)
I think DWeaver is right. Take off the enthusiast cap and look at it through someone else's eyes. Obviously, we all want to partake, we dig coasters and go out of our way in most cases to get in on some coaster action. SF raising prices takes that away and it sucks. I mean if these other parks can let us enjoy our hobby for such a minimal cost, the why can't they...them bastards!
Most people don't feel that way. They just spend a day at the park each year as a getaway of whatever degree they need. The SF prices aren't scaring anyone. They're not killing business. They're certainly not making people drive hundreds of miles to other parks. It is what it is.
Sorry to get back on the topic of flashpass, but it's a great example to use here. SF can't get their rides operating smoothly, so they offer a "cut-in-line" service. They offer less service then other parks and yet charge more. Not a good value. Same as the food offerings. Same as the parking (once the cold, non human, first-person-you-encounter-is-a-robot, automated gates are installed).
...And same as the no-reentry policy. They charge as much as $60 to get in, yet will not let you leave and return like other parks their size. Not a good value.
I see nothing wrong with making a profit. The business is obligated to do so. I just think creating a negative image of the business not the way to do it. Fix the operational problems, charge about the same as other parks their size, and call it value. When people hear the name "Six Flags", they will smile and remember what a great time they had there each year and not how every time they go they feel like they were ripped off.
When people hear the name "Six Flags", they will smile and remember what a great time they had there each year and not how every time they go they feel like they were ripped off.
But what I'm saying Dex, is that the average park goer probably doesn't feel ripped off. They may think it's expensive to visit a park, but that's not the same thing. Expensive and rip-off are two totally different things.
Again, I'm saying that perhaps price isn't as big a part of the equation as everyone seems to think it is.
Let's flip the judging criteria. How many people who do live in the SFGAdv/Knoebels/Dorney area (the kinds of folks who very well ay have to decide which to visit) are turned off by Knoebel's because they only have three coasters. Should they build more coasters to be more like the other parks in the area?
Maybe people feel more ripped off paying $34 for a "ride all day" at Knoebel's and their line-up of three coasters and a variety of flats than they do paying $39 for the huge variety of wood and steel monsters, themed areas, characters, kiddie sections, etc at SF.
I can certainly see how the average person (read: not an enthusiast) would see infinite value in that. So what if drinks are more? I'm getting so much offered to me right off the bat inside the park for just five extra dollars.
And as far as the number of rides - most people (especially the families Shapiro seems to be after) aren't power riding. Hell, most aren't even 'running the circuit' in a day. They get in a few coasters, catch a show, head to Wiggles World for the kids, a flat or two along the way, stop to see the tigers in the Golden Kingdom, pick up some Cold Stone Creamery ice cream and check out the Wii gaming station. :)
And heck, since this park offers so much more for almost the same price - why not spend a little extra on one of those electronic devices that helps guarantee we'll get to see and do everything?
And as I said earlier - the numbers don't lie. You can't argue with reality. SFGAdv outdraws the other two parks combined. There must be something to that logic. If price both inside and outside the park was the driving factor (value), then logically, wouldn't the attendance numbers of those three parks be reversed?
It just doesn't add up the way you want it to.
Lord Gonchar said:
The bottom line is, Six Flags can place itself among the "higher spectrum" in regards to price because chances are, most people aren't going to drive hundreds of miles to find a cheaper alternative.This is also the reason, I don't buy into word-of-mouth being a significant factor in the big scheme of things.
If you find great value (or robbed blind) at the local mom-and-pop amusement park that consists of 3 rides that NO ONE has heard of may work for word of mouth. The big chains? It's almost pointless since these are household names.
I mean, seriously. We all have our opinion of which is better: Coke, Pepsi, RC, or none (some people don't like cola at all). If you're a coke-lover, and someone told you how horrible their experience was buying a coke from a vending machine, and how it was $2 for a 20oz, and you actually had to pay $4 because the first time it didn't come out. Are you going to stop drinking coke? Not likely. What about if a Pepsi drinker tells you about how sweet and cold the soda is, and how they went to buy the $1 bottle from the machine, and actually got *2* bottles by accident, and got so much value that they dug into their wallet and bought 2 more. Are you going to buy a Pepsi? Probably not.
Now let's say you fall into the..oh..99% of America that, *IF* you drink cola, you don't give a flying circus what label is on the bottle. You don't really care if it's $1.50 or $2.00. You're thirsty, and you want a cola. You put your money in the nearest machine, and make the selection. When you were deciding, did you think about what your friends told you about soda? Of course not. Odds are, you and your friends don't even talk about soda.
For extremely local, out-of-the-way things, or upstarts trying to make a name for themselves, word-of-mouth does help to a degree. Not so much with a nationally-known household name. For every person that says "don't underestimate word of mouth", I retort "don't OVERestimate word of mouth", because the effects can be just as negative.
Arthur Bahl said:By the way, I have one qualification egarding the appropriateness of higher admission prices at big parks. As someone mentioned earlier, its not enough to have the big rides. You should be able to get on enough rides during a day witout 2 and 3 hour waits.
Any park that expects you to pay extra to jump lines and which has extremely long waits otherwise is a very poor value and normally not worth a high admission price. It's those season pass holders at Six Flags that can get some reasonable value because they arent paying extra for admission after the first or second visit. Six Flags really needs to do more for those once a year visitors.
And then Gonch replied:
There's an awful lot of people paying these prices. There's an awful lot of people buying food and drinks. There's an awful lot of people paying $15 to park. There's an awful lot of people standing in an extra line and shelling out an addition $30 for a Q-bot.
Here's a thought: Jack the gate price up by $30 (and the SP price according to the same % increase).
Your attendance will plummet, sure, but you'll have the people left who were willing to pay for the Q-Bot (that's the same amount of money they were paying before) but now there'll be virtually no wait! Now everyone is happy!
(or not...)
Edit: added the 2nd response b/c I didn't want to doublepost, and had to fix a typo in the first half. *** Edited 1/24/2007 11:52:48 AM UTC by dannerman***
As for Knoebels charging $34 but only having 3 coasters. remember that you can buy tickets for individual rides instead. Many people have a great time at KG while spending about $20-$30 on the rides. How many parks of comparable size give you that chioce?
I do concede that KW, GL, and CP are underpriced on a national basis but you have to look at the local areas where they are. The Northern Ohio/Western PA/Southern MI area isn't very robust economically. That's another reason why Six Flags pulled up from this area. SFO was caught between two parks with great reputations (CP and KW) that understand their regional market.
What about the matter of "Free" Drinks at HW and LC. If they didn't have them, they would probably charge $2 per drink like KW and KG. (LC is owned by KW) Assuming an average of 3 drinks per visitor comes to $6 but the parks probably recoup some of this in extra food sales or games played or souveniers. So maybe it comes to an extra $4 on the admission price. But that's only 1 drink at Six Flags so it is a good deal.
If I lived in Atlanta or Dallas I would probably go the the Six Flags parks regularly but put me in Philly and you would find me mostly at DP, HP and KG. In Washington, I would spend more time (and money) at KD.
What if KW were a Six Flags? I would probably go there every other year instead of once or twice annually. And NO, I would not buy a season pass. Instead I would patronize some of the other parks (GL, Waldameer, DelGrossos etc.) in the region and make a trip to CP in the alternate years.
Arthur Bahl
Marketing to 2-hour+ drives with household names.. word-of-mouth effects just plumetted to nearly-immeasurably levels.
Sure, to the ENTHUSIAST, Six Flags over YourState is a dump and needs better customer service. To the average Joe taking his wife and 2 kids... Pepsi vs. Coke, my friend.
CP is bigger and can promote itself over a wider area as far west as Chicago for example. but they mainly focus on Ohio, Southern MI, Western PA, Northern IN, and SW Ontario.
SFGAdv primarily markets in the NYC area, NJ, eastern PA and DE.
Some parks like BGE, KBF, SDC, and DW are semi destination parks that depend partly upon vacation travelers that stay in the region for several days or more. They promote the parks heavily in their regions but also further away. These parks arent enough of a draw in themselves to get visitors to come from long distances but combined with other attractions in the area, they bring them in. Most people in Pittsburgh know about BGE and many from the area have been there. They make it part of a vacation along with places such as Colonial Williamsburg and Virginia Beach. The same goes for SDC. Branson draws many people from 500 or even 1000 miles away and having a theme park there adds to the appeal.
Arthur Bahl
My point? Just because people are USED to certain pricing, doesn't mean certain pricing is right.
And it's not just cost. Theme parks, on the average, sell awful food. Small portions, snail-like service, cold, tasteless food... I wish that all theme parks served halfway decent food. Gonch, you bring up a good point about eating at the Olive Garden, but the thing is, very rarely does a theme park meal approach the quality of an Olive Garden meal (and as you said, that's not saying much). If I'm going to pay handsomely for something, it better be good. When you buy something like a BMW or a Benz, you're paying a lot of money, but you expect it to be a better car- or at least deliver a better driving experience- than something that costs less.
Can you imagine what would happen if Six Flags lowered food prices by even a dollar or two while increasing the quality and the level of service? It would be one less thing for people to complain about, and one less reason for them to hesitate about paying the park another visit. It's amazing how much those little details sometimes matter.
If Six flags lowered the cost of their food by a dollar or 2? I'm never eating at a six flags again, because I will not wait an hour for food.
No matter how many high school kids or foreigners you cram in a pizza or burger joint, there's only so fast you can make the food. The lines would be longer, and six flags would make less it profit (as had been shown ad nauseum by Gonch). It's a lose-lose situation.
You are correct that because people are used to it doesn't make it right. On the other hand, just because YOU happen to be on a budget doesn't make it wrong. It just makes it out of your budget.
Sure the price at Six Flags reflects the cost of those big coasters but couldn't they improve the quality and the service?
Regarding food quality, the big regional park chains appear to fare worst here. IMO this is how it goes.
Six Flags -- everyones whipping boy here and for good reason although they don't have a monopoly on bad park food.
Cedar Fair (not including Paramount) -- Varies with the park. There are some good food choices at CP and KBF where the food offerings are more varied but the smaller parks with their more limited selections put a greater emphasis on mediocrity.
Paramount -- Another icon of mediocrity. Maybe CF can improve things at these parks.
Disney -- Runs the range from very good to downright mediocre. Generally better with their sit down facilities although there are exceptions
Universal -- Some very good quality here if you are willing to pay the price but some more run of the mill stuff as well.
Busch -- Above average in general
SDC and DW -- Very good. These parks really do believe in having quality food in the parks
KW and KG -- Mostly standard amusement park fare but among the best food of this type.
Arthur Bahl
And I don't get the excuse of "I don't go to parks for the food, so it doesn't need to be good." Why can't park food be good? Some of it is. Some park food is better than anything I can get at one of my favorite restaurants. I feel that park food should be another attraction at each park and not just a means to fill visitors' stomachs. When I go to Dollywood and Indiana Beach, I look forward to the food, because they have some yum yums than I can't readily get anywhere else. I look forward to getting a cherry ICEE. And I don't mind shelling out the cash then. And then I leave happy and want to return for more.
I guess this brings up another factor...those who will eat the crappy food just to satisfy their hunger and those who won't eat until they find something worth eating. For me, when it comes to fried, unhealthy food, often known as "park food", I try hard to only eat the stuff that tastes really good. It's not worth the calories / carbs / fat / etc... if it doesn't taste delicious. For example, cold, soggy french fries are just pointless to eat IMO. But if they are fresh, crispy and flavorful (Arby's curly fries, mmmmmm), I enjoy them and don't worry too much about the cost.
AV Matt
Long live the Big Bad Wolf
dannerman said:
You are correct that because people are used to it doesn't make it right. On the other hand, just because YOU happen to be on a budget doesn't make it wrong. It just makes it out of your budget.
I don't go to any park with a budget. I simply spend when compelled. If something looks good, I'll buy it. If I know it's going to suck, I'll pass. That's my budget. When I'm in a park, I spend whatever it takes to make me happy. If I'm thirsty and buy drinks a half dozen times, so be it. The thing is, when I leave the park and think about how much it cost to make me happy, that is what's going to determine how enthused I am to go back. I get the feeling most people are the same way. Buyer's regret can be a powerful thing.
Well put, Matt. I don't buy into that "I don't go to parks for the food" metality either. I go to parks for the overall experience and the food is a huge part of the experience, especially if I'm going to be inside the gates for 10 or 12 hours. I don't go to a clothing store to converse with the sales staff but it certainly helps if they're friendly and competent.
Maybe I would have less of a problem if some of the prices weren't such an obvious rip-off. A 20 oz. bottle of soda from a vending machine for $3.50? Come on. I can go to the grocery store and buy a single bottle for $1.29, and likely a lot less if I buy bottles by the case. I can't imagine that grocery store paying the distributor any more than 50 cents a bottle because they're buying in such large quantities, so imagine what a place like Six Flags pays for buying those bottles in bulk. Even if they did pay 50 cents a bottle, they're selling it at a 700% profit. SEVEN TIMES WHAT THEY'RE PAYING! How can that NOT be defined as a blatant attempt to bleed the customer dry?
*** Edited 1/24/2007 4:44:26 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
Lord Gonchar said:
Let's flip the judging criteria. How many people who do live in the SFGAdv/Knoebels/Dorney area (the kinds of folks who very well ay have to decide which to visit) are turned off by Knoebel's because they only have three coasters. Should they build more coasters to be more like the other parks in the area?Maybe people feel more ripped off paying $34 for a "ride all day" at Knoebel's and their line-up of three coasters and a variety of flats than they do paying $39 for the huge variety of wood and steel monsters, themed areas, characters, kiddie sections, etc at SF.
I can certainly see how the average person (read: not an enthusiast) would see infinite value in that. So what if drinks are more? I'm getting so much offered to me right off the bat inside the park for just five extra dollars.
And as far as the number of rides - most people (especially the families Shapiro seems to be after) aren't power riding. Hell, most aren't even 'running the circuit' in a day. They get in a few coasters, catch a show, head to Wiggles World for the kids, a flat or two along the way, stop to see the tigers in the Golden Kingdom, pick up some Cold Stone Creamery ice cream and check out the Wii gaming station.
And heck, since this park offers so much more for almost the same price - why not spend a little extra on one of those electronic devices that helps guarantee we'll get to see and do everything?
That argument only works Gonch because you're comparing the most expensive option at Knoebels with the biggest discount at Six Flags. If people are savvy enough to find Six Flags discounts online or on soda cans, they should be smart enough to figure out that Knoebels will sell you 10 dollars worth of tickets for 9 dollars on weekdays, or that AAA will sell you a 5 dollar book for $4.25. Every ticket booth even has a sign telling you that you can get discounts on $100 worth of tickets at the handstamp booths.
And why would the same family who feels ripped off that Knoebels only has 3 coasters be OK with riding only riding a "few" coasters, catching a show, a flat or two, and getting some Cold Stone ice cream at SF? A family not looking to do the circuit, i.e., the same activities you describe above could do so for much less than $34 a person at Knoebels. They wouldn't have to do the POP is they only wanted to ride a few rides. Ice cream at the Old Mill costs probably half as much as the Cold Stone (with no difference in quality IMO). Plus Knoebels has dozens of flat rides a family could ride.
I'm not convinced SF offers so much more for the same price. I don't usually do the POP at Knoebels, and I get plenty of rides in spending only 20-25 dollars on tickets. Great Adventure could have 600 rides, but if the reality is I'm only going to get on 5-6 of them at the most, who cares?
Don't assume that Knoebels is strictly a park catering to locals either. They have (or had) billboards along I-99 just above Lakemont, and on I-81 just north of Hershey (interstingly, Idlewild has one southbound on 81 just past Hershey too). Every time I go there, I see plates from NJ, NY, MD, and DE in the parking lot. Church and school groups from out of state are coming too. Obviously those people are feeling they're getting some kind of value for their travel.
I'll grant that Knoebels can't charge big chain prices for their food. Believe it or not, their prices are "slightly premium" for the typical ice cream stand or burger joint in the area as well.
It's true that Great Adventure outdraws a park like Knoebels 3.something million to 1.something. But who ever said that Knoebels WANTS to draw 3 million plus a year?
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