Shanghai Disneyland will close in effort to contain coronavirus

Demonstratably good?

GoBucks89 said:

Objective right/wrong doesn't exist in those cases.

That's just not true. It's the "everyone's entitled to their opinion" excuse. Sure they are, but it doesn't make them right, and giving credence to what they believe is one reason they persist. I mean, just look at the post after yours.

In response to your earlier point, I do think science, evidence, data, and logic are "demonstrable" and objective, I don't think anyone would say that round earth, evolution, or the moon landing are "just trying to get people to do what I want" and the only difference between those and the facts about Covid is politicization. Now, what to do in response to those facts is debatable, but the facts (i.e. it is real, it kills people, it spreads through aerosols, mask and vaccines prevent spread) are undeniable (to the level of our current understanding) and definitely not "just trying to get people to do what I want."

Author's note: Maybe it's not a "fact' that you should care about other people, but I kind of take that as a starting assumption in the first place and if you aren't starting from that place, there's no discussion.

Edit: Yeah, what Jeff said.

Aaaaaaannnnnndddd....

We're full circle.

...

...

Again.

That's just not true.

As a response to what I said that you quoted, this makes no sense. I said that objective right/wrong doesn't exist in those cases without specifying what cases I was talking about. Your saying that is just not true is wrong. Demonstrably wrong in fact.

It's the "everyone's entitled to their opinion" excuse.

That isn't what I said either. Maybe you should go back to pasta tossing in the SeaWorld thread.

I mean, just look at the post after yours.

What part of "Or that it applies to any given aspect of Covid response" did you find confusing?

and the only difference between those and the facts about Covid is politicization

I disagree with this. We aren't looking to know more about the Earth being round or man having landed on the moon. There is a ton of stuff we don't know about Covid. No doubt there is politicization (as there is to much of every day life totally unrelated to Covid and across the globe). But its not the only difference.

Now, what to do in response to those facts is debatable,

But that is where the substance is. Even if you agree on each and every fact, what to do about them is what matters.

definitely not "just trying to get people to do what I want.

Couple things here. One, you said you find it hard to just let go of other people holding demonstrably wrong positions. I didn't think that was limited to Covid. Two, I said I wasn't saying that it was something that you were doing or do.

Maybe it's not a "fact' that you should care about other people, but I kind of take that as a starting assumption in the first place and if you aren't starting from that place, there's no discussion.

There may be no discussion if we aren't starting from there. But even if we are, the discussion isn't over or resolved. And certainly not in a demonstrably right/wrong way.

Edit: Yeah, what Gonch said.

Bozman said:

Do people not understand that with a vaccinated population of 200 million, if the vaccine is 95% effective that is still 10 million infections? Or roughly an additional 20% of all reported infections since the start of the pandemic.

Why do we have such a problem with the law of large numbers?

Because your adding apples to kumquats and getting dog crap for an answer.

Hopkins did a study of 4M vaccinated people and found breakthrough cases were about 1 case for every 5,000 vaccinated people, which is a far cry from your 20% of the total pandemic.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coro...n?amp=true

There is always right and wrong, regardless of context.

Pasta bar is open.

ApolloAndy said:

And to get extra meta, maybe my approach to life is demonstrably wrong and I ought to change it.

Because your adding apples to kumquats and getting dog crap for an answer.

Hopkins did a study of 4M vaccinated people and found breakthrough cases were about 1 case for every 5,000 vaccinated people, which is a far cry from your 20% of the total pandemic.

Yeah, this is an example of my not being at all clear what I was trying to convey.....

My point being there are ~50 million reported cases. If you take the 10 million expected breakthrough cases from a 95% efficacy from the vaccine, that represents an additional 20% potential to the case total. I am not saying 20% of the current cases are breakthrough at all.

And probably still not clearly stating my thoughts.

The JHU study, if I interpret correctly would state that breakthrough cases only total 0.02%. That seems low.

Lord Gonchar said:

...I'm not trying to downplay anything so let's not get our panties in a bunch, but it shows how different our experiences really are - even in something that is affecting the entire population of the planet.

This is it right here. Within this forum there are some very different people. We live in different places and do very different jobs which puts us in the path of very different people and situations. We are not all seeing the same thing and it's not just because we aren't looking or are ignoring anything. We literally don't see the same things happening around us because the same things aren't happening around all of us as individuals.

Bozman said “Yeah, this is an example of my not being at all clear what I was trying to convey.....”

But that’s not what that 95% protection means. It’s not saying 5 out of 100 will contract Covid. It means if exposed to Covid your odds of infection are 5%. Those odds are the same any time you are exposed, like flipping a coin. It’s always the same odds, 50/50.

Kinda like condoms being 98% effective doesn’t mean 2 out of every 100 condoms will fail and allow pregnancy.

Paisley said:

This is it right here. Within this forum there are some very different people. We live in different places and do very different jobs which puts us in the path of very different people and situations. We are not all seeing the same thing and it's not just because we aren't looking or are ignoring anything. We literally don't see the same things happening around us because the same things aren't happening around all of us as individuals.

This sounds really awesome if you read it in Trump voice.

Not so fast.
We all ride the same trams from the parking lots, pass through the same security checks, wait in the same cattle corrals, grab the same lap bars, scream into the same air, and stand in the same gravy buffet lines. If there’s a group anywhere where the members run a constant, consistent risk, it’s us, lol.

RCMAC said:

a constant, consistent risk

Not necessarily. I've been to all of one amusement park since 2019, and that was post-vaccination. I agree with Paisley, there are vast differences in what many of us have experienced regarding COVID (which I think is why Gonch posed the question to begin with). This is why there is such discourse regarding what "we" should do about it. I'm fine with companies mandating whatever they want. Not sure if I feel the same about our government doing so.

I agree that local conditions are different, even between families and individuals, let alone towns or counties. However, it is also the case the none of these are completely independent of each other. Families and individuals and towns and counties may see mild impact, but their choice to lessen restrictions could create problems for surrounding areas and even other states or countries. It stands to reason there should be some larger body coordinating the entire response, country-wide. Maybe some kind of public overseers of health or center for diseases prevention or something like that ;).

Vater said:
I agree with Paisley, there are vast differences in what many of us have experienced regarding COVID (which I think is why Gonch posed the question to begin with).

Yeah, I was just wondering how we're all making our way through this.

I originally (and in my usual prophetic, uncanny, insightful way) brought the idea up way back in January:

Gonch said:
I think that when we're finally past it, it'll be interesting to look back on all of the different paths people took through the whole thing.

I fully believe we'll all take varying paths that work to varying degrees to our varying situations. In fact, you only have to read this thread to see that happening.

We don't even need to reply to this post to have a good idea as to which of us think that's a problem and which think it's just the reality of the situation.

Is that really insightful? "Different people will have different experiences." Like, I'm not trying to be a dick, but it seems like your contributions to this thread for a while have mostly taken the form of popping up to question why we're even having any discussion at all and to reassert that you are above it, over it, or <some other preposition> it.

Beats, "Everyone who doesn't do what I do is wrong and it frustrates me that I can't control it and they don't understand how misguided and dangerous they are" an equal amount of useless times. (that's a paraphrase of things)

I guess my ultimate point is that you guys aren't "right" and I've shifted from an argumentive approach to a more McConaughey approach.

Probably my fault for being sucked back in again. I did good at avoiding the thread for a while.

Lord Gonchar said:

Beats, "Everyone who doesn't do what I do is wrong and it frustrates me that I can't control it and they don't understand how misguided and dangerous they are" an equal amount of useless times. (that's a paraphrase of things)

Demonstrably wrong.
(I hope the sarcasm is obvious, but Coasterbuzz.)