Shanghai Disneyland will close in effort to contain coronavirus

Illinois just went masks required for all P-12 students, staff and visitors effective immediately. Additionally employees in group care settings across the state are now required to be vaccinated.

quote]ApolloAndy said:

Most hesitant people are indifferent and/or fed up with uncertainties (this is actually quite generous. I think most people who are hesitant are taking a political position).

Partisanship Isn’t The Only Reason Why So Many Americans Remain Unvaccinated

As Jeff points out every other page, beliefs are not equivalent. Beliefs based on misinformation or willful ignorance are less correct than beliefs based on data.

We're getting more philosophical here, but...

I couldn't disagree with this more. To me, someone who never gets a vaccine and never contracts the virus is arguably more 'correct' in their actions/outcomes than someone who takes all the precautions and gets or spreads the virus. All that matters is not spreading the virus. Does it matter how you get there - even if it's the least advisable path?

I mean, I can't imagine living my life by the hard and fast rule of doing what's "right" based on solely on completely left brained, data-driven life choices. Who does that? I'd have the barrel of the gun very near my head at this point. Hell, most of my greatest and fondest memories are the result of doing **** that makes no sense to do on paper. I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am in life if I did the "right" thing (based on your definition) all of the time...or even most of the time, really.

I'm a big fan of 'feel' - it it feels right, do it.

I know we've had this discussion before as well (I think it was years ago when we were talking about the semantics of "luck") but I totally disagree with you. If you don't get vaccinated, and you happen to not contract or spread the virus, then you are lucky, not right <insert seat belt conversation here>.

I don't live life totally based on left brained data, but it is an overwhelming part of my decision making most of the time. And I think it's harmful to self and others to intentionally ignore it. I can't imagine knowing that something is correct and then purposefully doing something else. I also can't imagine having the capacity to figure out what's correct and choosing not to figure it out. It's definitely my personality, but I happen to think my personality is right (which is, itself, part of my personality). If you happen to be familiar with the enneagram, I am very much a 1.

There's almost certainly a conversation to be had about privilege in the face of consequences for choosing wrong, but maybe that's for a different time.

Well, as the Trumpies say, "**** your feelings." 😂

I think we're very fortunate to have a faith leader among us (and I mean that sincerely as a person who, honestly, has largely abandoned religion), because I think it helps us understand the intersection of feelings and science, and what is objectively true. Critical thinking serves us well here, and while the efficacy of mitigation tactics has changed as we collected data, none of them were wrong based on our knowledge at the time. Globally, we've had wildly different outcomes, but they've all been dictated by the willingness to adhere to what we understood at the time. That's why Australia and New Zealand had relatively great outcomes, and 'Merica, not so much. I mean, even India, which had a terrible spring, did well last year in their willingness to commit.

The American story, since the start, you could sum up as, "I don't like how this affects me, and I will act accordingly." As if a virus you can't even see cares. It is nothing short of a spectacular failure that we could lead the world in vaccine development and production and fumble it so badly. I mean, really think about that... the outcome was that the government made it free for 330 million people get a vaccine that would reduce the impact of the virus to a rounding error, and nearly half the population has been dragging its feet, and we're back to the worst place in January, about to exceed it.

In that context, I'm so uninterested in anyone's feelings. I hate the idea that there's no nuance, but you were part of the solution or you weren't.

I have no doubt that what you guys are saying makes perfect sense to you in the same way what folks on the "other side" argue makes perfect sense to them.

I'll leave it at that and politely remove myself from the conversation yet again.

Quitter! Fight me! 😀

There’s some decent evidence that Delta is already contracting in some of those early outbreak states. Tennessee , Missouri, and Arkansas already have a Rt below 1.0. Arkansas, Louisiana and Florida aren’t below 1.0, but are trending better.

You never know with this virus, but there is a lot of hope that Delta burns out as fast as it flares. Data in India, UK, and Israel seemed to indicate this is/was a fast burner…

Source: https://www.covidestim.org/

Lord Gonchar said:

All that matters is not spreading the virus.

To quote Peter Venkman...

No.

All that matters is that you are doing your part as a small piece to a larger system attempting to snuff the virus out to such an extent that a potential vaccine-busting variant is not possible.

This is no different than getting your blank-slate kids the MMR shot when they are too young to be labeled as anti-vaxxers.

It's here where I am consistently dumbfounded; not necessarily with what Gonch said but the whole mentality. This is no different than how we (speaking in terms of humanity) have bid adieu to all sorts of nasty diseases.

Lord Gonchar said:

To me, someone who never gets a vaccine and never contracts the virus is arguably more 'correct' in their actions/outcomes than someone who takes all the precautions and gets or spreads the virus.

(see above)

If you choose not to vaccinate your kids to Polio and your kids never get Polio, you didn't win any special trophy, and you certainly didn't help anything. You just got yourself a thank you note from Polio for helping in his comeback-bid, which is even worse than another Motley Crue retirement tour. In what universe is doing nothing better than doing something (especially when that something is literally close to doing nothing)?

But, in any case, you are excused. I'm coming with you.

I've been having a hard time jumping back in myself, for a lot of reasons.

Ultimately then (and this is a fun question in a big philosophical sense well beyond whether or not some jackoff got a shot), which is more important - actions or outcomes?

And you're not coming with me. You just called me mental so now I'm gonna go be cool by myself for a few hours.

At least that guy is wearing a seatbelt.

If you choose not to vaccinate your kids to Polio and your kids never get Polio, you didn't win any special trophy, and you certainly didn't help anything. You just got yourself a thank you note from Polio for helping in his comeback-bid

That’s not how it works. If you kids never get Polio, they neither helped nor hurt Polio’s cause.

Viral mutation occurs with both the vaccinated and unvaccinated. It is a legitimate concern. Particularly since we now know the vaccinated are catching Covid again. But there is an argument to be made that the scariest mutation will come from the bug that mutates around vaccine protection (i.e. mutates from within the vaccinated population).

“Get your vaccine so you can thwart the spread of scary mutations” is no longer a sound argument, if it ever was. The best (only?) argument to get your vaccine, based on current knowledge is… “Get your vaccine so you greatly reduce the chance you die from a horribly painful death dumbass!”

What universe do we live in that not getting a disease is not the win?

Jeff said:

What universe do we live in that not getting a disease is not the win?

The real universe where current science says even the vaccinated are catching and spreading Covid…“Not getting a disease” isn’t an option for Covid right now. Like it’s not an option for the common cold, etc. Mitigation is currently the best option. Elimination doesn’t seem possible based on today’s knowledge.

Don't quote the previous post.

You're making an unqualified and disingenuous assertion. Vaccinated people were always going to be a vector for Covid, but the frequency with which that happens is smaller even than the initial trials suggested they would be. 0.08% of infected people in the US have become infected. That doesn't mean "not getting the disease" isn't an option. Furthermore, if more people are vaccinated, you encountered fewer infected people, and that percentage keeps dropping.

Educate yourself. Suggesting that we just have to suck it up and expect to get infected or that there's no winning scenario is completely avoiding critical thinking, and objectively incorrect.

The study you link goes back to January...many months BEFORE Delta even existed.

Part of educating yourself is realizing when the data you are looking at is fudging denominators. Any statistics for the Delta variant that go beyond mid-June are useless to gaining current knowledge.

Delta spreads among the vaccinated…certainly at a frequency exponentially higher than 0.08%.

“As of Thursday, 882 people were tied to the Provincetown outbreak. Among those living in Massachusetts, 74% of them were fully immunized…”

There are all sorts of problems with the Provincetown study that the CDC used to justify recommending more stringent mask regulations again…

But I think all us “educated” folk can agree that 74% of the vaccinated is a little higher than 0.8%.

This is a good lesson on how distorting denominators (going back to January) leads to faulty conclusions.

”Not getting the disease” isn’t an option based on current data. But we do agree that it is best people educate themselves.

Source: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cdc-mask-decision-stunning-findings...itter_abcn

Again, you're cherry picking out of context. If you are surrounded by 100 people with Covid, and you spend all of your time around them, you're exposed more, so your risk goes up. That's what the Provincetown outbreak shows. It's the same pattern for literally any disease. If you don't encounter infections, you don't risk infection. That's how vaccination works. Critical thinking, man.

And the dates on the linked articles are last week, with current data. Even in the SA article, they point out that:

Nationally, as of August 2, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported that more than 164 million people have been fully vaccinated, just under half of the total population. Yet 97 percent of those who are being hospitalized for COVID-19 are unvaccinated.

Any kind of suggestion that it's not working is not rooted in any reality.

Critical thinking would require one to admit that the 0.08% spread rate that goes back to January is laughably wrong.

I stated the Provincetown study has “all sorts of problems.”

My point is that I didn’t want any uneducated readers to see your 0.08% post and wrongly believe it is realistic.

I guess I can chime in here, I can’t attest to 0.08% or 74% either. But one of our towns nearby posts their infection rates, split by vaccinated and unvaccinated rates. The vaccinated infection rate is around the 5% mark.

I only know of it because a coworker was mentioning it, I figured I would double check the data.

Nationally, as of August 2, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported that more than 164 million people have been fully vaccinated, just under half of the total population. Yet 97 percent of those who are being hospitalized for COVID-19 are unvaccinated.

And critical thinkers realize that the vast majority of those vaccinations happened BEFORE the Delta variant hit US shores… Therefore then 97% number is USELESS data…to recognizing current trends/reality.

If you want to argue that Delta isn’t that big of a deal…I’m all ears…as there is tons of data to support that. A critical thinker looks at Provincetown’s data and sees only 7 were hospitalized and nobody died. All great reasons to vaccinate…or just be optimistic.

But these ridiculous numbers (only 0.08% spread…97% hospitalized unvaccinated, etc) are the mantra of non-critical thinking. These are all using fudged denominators.

Instead of making some smartass comment to justify the fact you were unaware you were sharing faulty data with unrelated denominators…the very mark of the uneducated… Admit you made a mistake and move on. I don’t think you are stupid. I think you got tricked by faulty denominators.

Delta spreads through and via the vaccinated too. We know this is true. Otherwise the CDC would have never changed their recommendation. Not an opinion. FACT!