SFGAdv locker policy backlash hits Consumerist.com

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Spinout said:

I like how you didn't say the attendance for 2005. Six Flags was hit with much lower attendance chainwide when Red Zone took over. Yes, they are getting more cap, but they lost some numbers of people when they took over.

In 2005, attendance was only at 33.7 million.

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That number includes SFNO (still not open) and 7 parks they sold.

The 33.7 million number is irrelevant.

^They still lost about 4.5 million than. Those 7 parks got 3.6 million in 2006. Six Flags New Orleans was barely doing anything. That's a lot of people to lose in one year.

I also wonder if they were counting those people that went to the PARC parks for 2007. They were still accepting season passes, and it was still on Six Flags website. Now, it says we are not part of that park anymore on Six Flags website. Maybe, that's why we never seen a 3.6 million decrease in attendance from Six Flags yet in the numbers.

From 2005 to 2006, they had all those parks you are talking about. *** Edited 6/13/2008 4:55:45 PM UTC by Spinout***

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LostKause said:How many rides do you go on in a day at your local SF park, Olsor? 10-15 I would guess, and at least twice that if you had a FlashPass. Add $10-$30 to your admission price, not just $1.

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Last time I went to SFFT, I went on five rides one time each, and everything was a walk-on. I've never purchased a FlashPass or Q-bot. Too expensive. I'd rather just pick a day to go when I know crowds will be light.

Just so you know, I did feel mildly wallet-raped after paying $37 for a ticket that I had to pay an extra $3 for the privilege of printing it at home, paying $15 for parking that was $6 just a few years ago, and paying $9 for a 20 oz. Coke and a large pretzel. But it was the only trip I'd be making to SFFT for the foreseeable future, and it was the first time I'd gone there in three years. I don't mind shelling out what I did for a one-time stop. If I intended to go back several times a year, I'd get the season pass and the season parking pass.

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LostKause said:Maybe that's the reason stupid people are willing to pay up. I say it's "smoke and mirrors". I wonder if people realize that by the end of the day, they spent $15 to park, $60 to get in, $30 to be able to not stand in stalled-out lines, $30 for 30 One time use lockers, and $30 for a Pizza and drink? Mesmerize them with a bunch of Multi-Million Dollar high-tech rides so they don't realize that even after they have dropped over $160, they're still treated like crap.

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But that's the whole point. People are shelling out this kind of money precisely so they can go ride multi-million dollar rides. Only the uninformed (I'll use that term instead of "stupid") are paying full price to get in, going on crowded days, and paying for $1 lockers outside every ride instead of getting an all-day locker at a central location.

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LostKause said:And, some people NEED to being their swimsuit, a change of socks for after they go on the Rapids ride, or a jacket for the morning and evening chill. Everyone has different needs. Why judge them for that?

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe a lot of parks used to let you bring bags into the park. I know I didn't see SFGAm allowing it until some point in the '90s. If you brought extra stuff to the park, you left it in the car. Carrying a backpack full of stuff everywhere you went wasn't something kids of my generation did. But it was absolutely commonplace with kids four or five years younger.

People don't NEED to take stuff into the park other than money, car keys, and medication. Everything else can be stowed in the car and retrieved later. Parks install all-day lockers for the guests' convenience, and you have to pay for that convenience. Even more convenient are lockers right outside of rides, and Six Flags asks you to pay for that convenience as well. Six Flags could provide all of these conveniences for free, but they choose not to. They're in a world of hurt, financially speaking, so I can't say I blame them.

I think most people just accept that this is the system Six Flags has in place, and they live with it. You personalize it and say that Six Flags is treating people like crap. I don't think most people feel like they've been treated like crap, or else we'd see those attendance numbers plummet.

At Disney, you're supposed to have a magical time, and at Hersheypark, you're supposed to have a sweet day. Why? Because these parks depend on people traveling great distances to go there. They need their guests to have a special time so that they'll tell their friends and hopefully come again sometime. Six Flags doesn't need that. They certainly need all the guests they can get, but they don't need to provide a special experience. They're only trying to pull in locals, and they're competing against things like going to the movies, going to an athletic event, or staying home (TV, video games, etc.). Six Flags will always provide a unique alternative to those experiences, whereas places like Disney, Hershey, and Busch are competing for people's vacation destinations, which is a tougher choice.

I think the bottom line is that you really have to look at Six Flags by itself, or at the most, compare it to Cedar Fair. You can't compare it to destination parks, family parks, or Disney parks. It's the same game, but it's not the same ballpark. If Six Flags irritates its guests enough with nickel-and-diming, they'll stop coming, or they'll get smarter about how and when they visit.

This policy along with the high parking fee reeks of the park going straight for your wallet. Of course that's what they all do and we even did it playing RCT. It would be a little more tolerable if the higher cost were worked into the admission and not so visible. $15 + for the priveledge of parking then walking a thousand yards really gets your day off on the a bad start. I still say Ihaven't seen a damn thing in that lot worth $15.

I've yet to pay for parking or lockers at any Six Flags park this year. Anyone wishing to know the secret to how I've escaped those fees is free to email me....

I feel the same way, john13601. I'd much rather pay one fee and not have to worry about pulling out my wallet all the time. Heck, I would even pay more for a one-day admission if they built a voucher for one meal into that price.

But I think what Six Flags is doing is trying to stick to a price point for one-day admission, and that's why we see the nickel-and-diming. I think they believe they'll scare away too many potential guests if they start charging what Disney or Busch charges for a single-day admission. So they keep the discount tickets in the $30-$50 range, then they nail you parking, food, lockers, etc. It's a pain, but I understand why they're doing it.

It all goes back to Gonch's argument about "free" parking and drinks. Parks definitely care about perception, and they market accordingly. Six Flags is catering to locals and people who can't afford to travel across the country to a destination park. To make sure they're perceived as an economical alternative, they have to keep that price point low. The problem is that most Six Flags parks grew WAY too fast under Burke & Co., and they need to charge more to keep up with the costs of the rides, staffing, and that ever-present debt load.

So Six Flags is stuck in a bad situation. They need as much money from their guests as possible, but they lose guests if they raise admission. They could get rid of some rides, which has been done, and they can scale back on operating hours, which has also been done, but you don't want to make people think you're giving them less for their money. They notice when rides go away. So you have to get creative about how you get that extra cash.

I don't blame people for not liking Six Flags policies. But I hate seeing them painted as this greedy, corporate monster. Hey... they're $2 billion in debt! They can't afford not to pick your pockets at this point. Every last park out there is in it for the profit. It's just that Six Flags isn't subtle about needing your cash. I think the sooner people accept that, the easier it'll be to just adapt to the policies and have a good time.

I think there is another aspect to this. I typically don't carry much into the park at all: hat if it is daytime, sunglasses on a strap (cateracts run in the family so sunglasses are a necessity), and a small travel tube of sunscreen (pale and burn easily). My wife may carry about the same amount of stuff, plus a bit more. We carried cell phones only once when we took a colleagues 6 year old with us and his mom insisted that we carry our cell phone. Why I have no idea... That being said, what these locker policies do is diminish my desire to
#1 Play any games where I might win
#2 Buy anything in the shops
#3 Buy larger souvenir cups, etc.
because I have no place to put it other than a locker if I were to go on a ride. Yes the parks typically will hold those up front for you, but that may not be convenient. So in some regards, the park is diminishing my per capita spending by instituting this policy. I compare this with Disney which, due to extreme merchandising, has extremely liberal policies in this regard. Yes there is a safety issue, but I think there is a happy medium. I don't know if it is still run this way, but Volcano at KD a few years ago used 2 - 3 carts for collecting items. While you waited to board you put your items in the cart. When you exited your cart was there with the items. Cheap efficient and generally worked pretty well. Of course, I seem to recall this also included flip flop shoes, etc. as well.

^KD still has the cart system for Volcano.

It is a good point that Six Flags is a different type of park from Disney or Busch Gardens or Hersheypark and thus needs to have different policies and ways of making money. Plus, I can see where they need to make up their debt. I'm not going to stop GOING to Six Flags now that I have witnessed their kickass coasters. I can also say that Great Adventure has made vast improvements to the appearance and cleanliness of the park since I visited so long ago. And I was never treated POORLY at Great Adventure. Still, I know they're in debt and everything, but there's gotta be a little relief for the park-goers, or at least, a point of financial stasis for us, instead of more and more price increases and gouging. People across every financial class like amusement parks, and pretty soon with things like dollar lockers, they are going to either be forced to go elsewhere with cheaper prices or they're going to have to go to the parks less. There's got to be a better way than bugging us for more money in little bits and pieces.

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Lord Gonchar said:You do realize that the point of an amusement park or theme park is the attractions...the amusements, right? I mean, I talk the business side probably more than anyone, but the business is the amusement industry. I would think the goal is first and foremost to provide amusement attractions to your customers. That's what people are coming for. The rest is details.

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The initial line-up of rides, yes, 100%. But then there's the thing about having them come back. Some parks offer great shows (SFFT comes to mind). Some have other *attractions* (craftsmen's valleys at Dollywood and SDC). SFMM under Del Holland spent crazy money on new thrill rides year after year for about a decade. Compare their results to similarly-sized parks that spent less than half as much on new rides but offered a greater diversity of product. Some parks seem to spend alot on upkeep and maintenance, or landscpaing and theming. A friendly, customer-focused staff is the best thing anyone can have. I guess what I'm getting at is alot goes into those very important "details".

But clearly, without any rides, you have Charmland...and Lighty. :)

P.S. It's good to be back...and let me be the first to compare the lockers at SF to the new charges on "first checked bag fees" on some major carrier(s). Not sure if other airlines have picked it up yet, they seem to be in pretty tight.....collusion...regarding fees and hikes, etc. I still think charging what you need to charge and not nickel-and-diming is a better overall plan for the long-term. Long-range thinking seems to be rare in business these days, LOL. (For the record, Universal's locker system is my "business model" of choice regarding lockers) But then again, anyone who's flown lately knows the airlines don't necessarily agree with me on that. ;)

*** Edited 6/17/2008 5:02:24 AM UTC by rollergator***

Unfortunately, the marketplace has spoken. Spirit and AirTran have been doing the nickel-and-dime routine for a while, and the majors have finally figured out that---wait for it---people are stupid. They seem to only compare the fares when choosing a flight, not the total cost to fly.

^Brian, I'm quoting portions of your post for my new sig....see below... :)

Let me know if you'd prefer that I change it again... ;)

Looks like fair use to me. ;)

European airlines have been doing the same thing for years. You pay barely anything for the flight, but pay per bag and each upgrade and service.

The more bags people bring, the more it costs them to fly the plane. I have no problem with that.

I'm not opposed to it at all on principle---I just prefer not to have to reach for my wallet all day.

I prefer POP admission to ride tickets, too. ;)

^^To be clear, I have no problem with airlines charging "per bag". But when you say "we're charging you for CHECKED baggage", then that creates a problem with everyone and their sister wanting to bring LOADS of carry-on (for obvious reasons).

So, in the very near future, I expect arguments and flight delays over too many people trying to bring every single thing onboard as carry-on. During the Delta flight yesterday from DCA to Atlanta , the overhead bins were SO stuffed that people were having to walk their bags to the very back of the plane before the plane was three-quarters full...and Delta doesn't even charge for the first checked bag...yet. ;)

All I'm getting at is this: Before you make a policy that's intended to raise revenue, at least consider the implications for your customers and employees. There just MIGHT be a better way to raise the same revenue without creating undue stresses to the system. (Honestly, I'm beginning to think the REAL plan, i.e. the optimal one, is to charge passengeres by weight for themselves AND their luggage, no matter WHERE it's stored - since fuel costs increase with overall weight and not just the weight of checked bags...LOL).

Agreed, they should just charge you per weight of each bag. If you start weighing people though you get into a whole rights issue.

I would like to see this actually improve the airline experience rather than maintain the experience and just charge more. But we all know its not going to happen that way.

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that creates a problem with everyone and their sister wanting to bring LOADS of carry-on

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That problem is easy to solve if the carriers actually enforced the carry-on limits already on the books. Is your bag larger than 9x14x22 inches? Then walk back to the ticketing counter and check it. You'll miss your flight? That's a shame. Next time, know the limits.

One of my travel pet peeves is the idiots who insist on flying with everything they own. Don't get me wrong, I rarely check a bag when flying domestically for business, but I also know how to pack lightly enough to fit into the allowable limits.

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Brian Noble said:
...and the majors have finally figured out that---wait for it---people are stupid.

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rollergator said:
^Brian, I'm quoting portions of your post for my new sig....see below...

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I do love you guys. :)

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Hey, wait! Why is it ok if you say it, but I catch hell for it?

People who think that people are stupid are stupid! HAHAHAHAHA!