Ron Toomer

It is getting old, these guys need to go duke it out in an alley or something. This is turning more into a dialogue than a message board. Besides, neither one of them is really accomlishing anything, they're just shooting each others ideas down left and right.

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If at first don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything.

Isn't that the point of a discussion?
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Intelligence is a God given gift: Know how to use it.

What about track gauge did somebody say? I know you won't believe me, but...

Corkscrew coaster track gauge (Arrow): 48"
(5" pipe rail mounted 48" on center)
(based on the one-sheet reproduced in the Cartmell book)

B&M coaster track gauge: 48"
(based on an enthusiast getting out a tape measure and measuring a section of Apollo's Chariot track: look here to see the original report, and here to see the attendant discussion in which we determined that the B&M track is 6" rails mounted on 48" centers.)

Care to guess again? :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

NewYorkSuperman said:
Because they're not properly maintained.

Then why was Vortex at PGA rougher then the arrow next to it Demon? While the other Beemer Top Gun is smooth and seems properly maintained. I'm sorry I love B&M but they are not perfect. Don't bother responding if your not going to explain the situation at PGA and the many other parks that have Beemers that have good B&M's and rough ones too. You can't blame maintenance there. Your argument is still not properly backed up. It sounds more like you just want to get attention by slamming Arrow anyway you possibly can.

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Formally Suspended Andrew, proud member since May 2001.
*** This post was edited by ClarkChavez 4/8/2003 6:23:45 PM ***

Thanks Clark. Seems my post was completely ignored. ;)

Hey NewYorkSuperman, would you like me to list all the Arrow rides where I have had absolutely no headbanging? We'll start off with Loch Ness Monster.

NYS: Have you ever run a business? Tell me how you grow and evolve without money. I'm dying to hear so I can quit my day job.

You've attempted to oversimplify something that isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be. There are serious fiscal issues you're ignoring. Think about the late 80's. By that point, the vast majority of parks had one of their rides. The next "big thing" that Arrow could produce was hypers. However, think about who could afford to buy them? Only a hand full of parks at the time would spend that kind of capital. It wasn't until the mid-90's that coaster wars started to happen, by which time competitors had new things to try (namely inverters and stand-ups from B&M). Where would Arrow get R&D dollars at that point?

If I were to pin any particular failure on Arrow, it wouldn't be engineering or design, it would be their need to produce steel in-house. It's arguably what killed them in the end. It's expensive and it requires maintaining inventory. Holding inventory costs money as you tie up capital in it.

Try to think a little about the big picture.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM

New York Superman: I'd like to elaborate on ClarlChavez's post a little.

Let's look at Iron Wolf, B&M's very first ride (on their own, at least. If you'd care to talk about Flashback...). It is, by far, the roughest roller coaster I have ever ridden. I have ridden Shock Wave, Steel Phantom, and several other Arrows, and nothing even compares to it. Yes, Dead Man's Curve on Shoch Wave was worse than any single transition on IW, but at least most of the ride was smooth or semi-smooth. Iron Wolf rattles throughout the ride, and jerks the heck out of you in the transitions.

Now, IW was pretty smooth when it opened. In fact, it was very smooth. However, this does not mean that it was up to current B&M engineering standards. All it means is that it was a bit beter than the current Arrow rides. Why? There are several reasons. For one thing, the problems with this ride are due to inherent flaws in the track. Great America has gone to considerable expense retrofitting the trains to make the rides better. No dice. If anything, the newer style restraints make it worse. And it's not the underworkings or the wheels: If you watch the ride, all three wheels on a given assembly are pretty much locked with the track at all times. Furthermore, the defects in this ride are not due to maintainance. Great America has exceptional maintainance. As you yourself have noted several times in this thread, their Batman:The Ride still gives a superb ride after ten years of operation. Also, Shock Wave was quite smooth in places, unlike the horror stories I've heard about some Arrows being rough all over. Add to that a smooth, smaller Arrow of over twenty five years of age (in some parts, at least) and a Swartchzkopf they can barely get parts for anymore, and you've got a pretty impressive track record.

All right, you say, (although you probably won't. But you could). Iron Wolf is a lemon. It was their first attempt, anyway. Can't you cut them some slack? Well, I could say that, no, since you don't cut Toomer any slack, I won't give any to B&M. But I can go farther than that. I'm going ot ask why IW is so bad, and how B&M improved, and I think I'm going to give a decent answer. Basically, I want to look at Mantis. Take out the dive loop and the inclined loop, scale it down a bit, and what do you have? Virtually the same exact thing as Iron Wolf. From the mid-course to the end, it's almost ther same darn thing as IW's roughest section (which could bring up maters of originality and "if it's not broke, don't fix it," but I won't get into that, here). Yet, Mantis is smooth. Intense, yes. Painful, occasionaly. But on Mantis, my head stays plastered to one spot, and doesn't hit te shoulder harnesses. Now, the changes between Mantis and IW are miniscule. What can account for them?

Computers. Iron Wolf was designed in the 80's. Mantis was designed in the 90's. It seems clear to me (using about the same amount of actual knowledge as your own aguments {"Go out and look at the transistions!"}) that the only reasons B&M's are so much beter than Arrows is because of computers.

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I hear America screaming...

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RideMan said:
What about track gauge did somebody say? I know you won't believe me, but...

Corkscrew coaster track gauge (Arrow): 48"
B&M coaster track gauge: 48"

Care to guess again? :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Mr. Althoff, you are SUCH a coaster geek! ;)

I guess it's like one of those optical illusions. The thick spine, the wide trains that sit on top instead of within the rails. And yes, I do believe you!

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"It's not a Too-mah!" - Arnold after riding Batman the Ride

All this talk about laziness. Cookie cutter etc. Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but this discussion has gotten lengthy. Does lazy=cookie cutter mean that Vekoma is lazy?

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"The most wasted of all days is one without laughter." e.e.cummings

Thank you SFGreatAmerican! I was waiting for someone to bring up Flashback in some way/shape/form. Sometimes I think that ride's the forgotton stepchild of B&M. This discussion seems to bring up Arrow's "bad" engineering quite a bit. You cannot mention some of B&M's highlights without mentioning their lowlights, like Flashback or Iron Wolf.

I'm sorry, but comparing the two directly is apples and oranges. Different times. Different design technologies. Different rides.

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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com

Isn't Flashback an Intamin ride? Even then, It and their standup rides like B:TE @ SFAW show that their rides weren't always perfect either. Unless I am mistaken those rides were designed about the same time as Iron Wolf and Vortex, so they wouldn't have had the computer technology either. BTW gread post SFGreat American.

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"Damn The Man! Save The Empire!"
-Mark, Empire Records

I noticed monday that Chang has an "arrow" loop The bottom is 30 feet off the ground. Looks like they kept the same size loop as on Mantis just put it higher up

Does this make B and M Lazy?

Your arguments are bunk

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It's like a Whirlwind inside of my head!

Technically Flashback is Intamin, but B&M were working for Intamin at the time. Also, Flashback and B:TE were built back in the days of Arrow's prime - mid 80's.

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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com

I know Flashback is rough and all, but I LOVE the layout. They should hollow out Magic Mountain, intall the ride inside with special effects, and pass out neck braces at the front of the line:

"Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the new and improved Flashback! Please place the thick part of the neck brace around the front of your neck and fasten it in the back....oooonce agaaaaiiinn....place the thick part of the neck brace around the front of your neck and fasten it in the back...if you are having difficulties, one of our lovely ride attendents will be by shortly..."

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"It's not a Too-mah!" - Arnold after riding Batman the Ride

I'm not going to bother with the rest right now, mainly because I have more important things to do than point out the flaws in the logic of a bunch of coasterbuzzers. I do have to respond to one thing, though, because it's ridiculous:

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MagnumForce said: I noticed monday that Chang has an "arrow" loop The bottom is 30 feet off the ground. Looks like they kept the same size loop as on Mantis just put it higher up

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What loop on Chang is 30 feet off the ground? The only thing that comes close is the first flatspin which, by looking at pictures, most intelligent people would be able to ascertain was done for good (spacial) reasons. Please, if you're going to argue, at least try to be halfway intelligent about it.

-Nate
*** This post was edited by coasterdude318 4/9/2003 4:35:37 PM ***

Woa ho there pardnerz! Keep it professional...we're intelligent enough here to know when someone is spouting gibberish. Just de-"bunk" their argument and leave it at that. No need to flame. WHY CAN'T WE JUST BE FRIENDS???? ;)

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"It's not a Too-mah!" - Arnold after riding Batman the Ride

He just doesn't want to "bother" with the rest because he knows we're right ;)

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Formally Suspended Andrew, proud member since May 2001.

Oh, yes, that's a good argument. Shouldn't you be in school or something?

-Nate (off to work)

I just came home from school thank you very much. Wow, for a while from reading your argument you sounded younger then me....

EDIT: Remember who called Toomer the moron without anything relevant to back it up.

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Formally Suspended Andrew, proud member since May 2001.
*** This post was edited by ClarkChavez 4/9/2003 5:00:52 PM ***

Check out this pic from my webshots album Nate 'ol boy. You cant even see the ground but you sure can see how high it is up. At least 25 to 30 feet from the ground.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/69015764/69040195ASJplf

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It's like a Whirlwind inside of my head!
*** This post was edited by MagnumForce 4/9/2003 7:25:40 PM ***