Ron Toomer

Magnum is generally credited to Toomer and Okomoto. I can see elements of both in the ride. The first half screams Okomoto, the second screams Toomer.

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It's like a Whirlwind inside of my head!

Danny: OK, Magnum was the first full circuit coaster to stand over 200 feet. Off hand, Bandit is 150 something above the ground, and it's drop is around the same. It just acheives a greater difference over the course due to the terrain.

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- "I used to be in the audio/visual club, but I was kicked out because of my views on Vietnam........and I was stealing projectors" - Homer Simpson

Ok Peabody, I got the impression that you were saying Bandit was over 200 feet tall, but just had a shorter drop (like Magnum). I see where you're coming from now, thanks!

-Danny

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MagnumForce said:
I can see elements of both in the ride. The first half screams Okomoto, the second screams Toomer.

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LOL to that - /\/\/\/\/\/\/\

I guess that explains why I *DO* Like the 3rd hill. It's the only airtime one that ride that doesn't hurt my thighs.

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Don't...Look....Back

Regarding the two Arrow coasters that were modified to be stand-ups, the mind train at SFStL and the cork at WoF: it was my impression that those modifications were made in-house, not by Arrow.

Can someone verify or correct?

Thanks!

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"God bless Atheists!" - Homer Simpson

I still have bruises from closing night, and I love them :)

Doesn't help that you always get stapled Josh

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It's like a Whirlwind inside of my head!

Aren't there problems with every prototype or new invention? The arrows were just the start of what coasters would become. It is just like xcelerator (which I believe is having structural reinforcements). Very few things actually work the first time so why should the early steel coasters be any different? I also dont think anybody has the right to call Toomer lazy. Even if he made the same things over and over again, its not like he sat down, drew whatever he wanted, and it became a coaster. He planned out every ride made. People have the right to dislike certain coasters, but they don't have the right to put down people who obviously worked very hard at what they did. Did it even occur to you how hard it is to make it in the industry? This man was one of the top designers for a coaster company, something that many people would like to someday be, but will never make it.

This is almost the same as when we enthusiasts complain about B&M with their incredibly smooth coasters and similar layouts. I guess there's just no pleasing some people...
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Intelligence is a God given gift: Know how to use it.

I know! Why do they staple ME? I don't even try for extreme room, I just let the lapbar rest on my legs like it should.

I guess that could be one of the major things that sways my opinion so much. I can have fun on the ride (the 3rd hill :) ) but if I get a staple ride it hurts me so bad I can't stand it. I would LOVE to see an Intamin built with that same layout....You know I'm an Intamin whore.

Point being - I don't HATE Magnum, but it's not in my top coasters. That's just my .02, though. I have a lot of fun when I'm riding with "coaster" friends, but that doesn't make it any less painful for me.

Then, Paul Rueben could do a commentary on it and say "Magnetic Brakes will stop you on a dime and give you a nickel change"
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Don't...Look....Back
*** This post was edited by Raven-Phile 4/3/2003 10:44:35 PM ***

Stronger return springs woudl do just fine.
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It's like a Whirlwind inside of my head!

Correction, MagnumForce...

Return springs would do just fine. Notice that Magnum and Gemini (and in fact any Arrow Runaway Train with individual lap bars) have none.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

What holds the bars up in the open position then Dave?

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It's like a Whirlwind inside of my head!

Nothing. Just friction on the hinge point. Haven't you ever had one fall down on you while you were trying to enter or exit? :( The one on Magnum's 3rd seat seems particularly bad. Or maybe it just seems that way 'cause that's where I usually sit! :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Never really thought about it Dave. 1-3 in the black train is my baby. Red train is evil.

I am one of the few who never has a problem getting stapled on much of anything. I could get out of Magnum if I wanted too, don't know why but I never have a problem with stapling at The Point including 3 click Blue Streak rides.

I have noticed that Adventure Express's lapbars are a lot stiffer then Maggies or Geminis.

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It's like a Whirlwind inside of my head!

You guyz don't get it. (by the way chris K nice passage on page 1), on my tour of the USA years ago, i can say that the head banging on the OTSR over there is not what i call "harsh". But there is alot of ingenuity (mind the spelling), within Ron Toomer, and althou i havn't read the book, i know that he was a pioneer, but other people in the industry didn't get the recognition they deserve. How would you compare Arrows 80's coasters to Meisho's? arrows are much better, with alot better transitions.

But anyway, hands to schwarzkopf, he trully was a great designer.

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UK, home to the King of Inverts, Nemesis, and the soon Heir, Inferno

"Ugh, oh please, the basic fact that any OTSR is brutal should clearly be seen. Hell look at the Premiers."

I wouldn't say any OTSR is bad. In all honesty I have come across few B&M's were I found banging into the restraint to be a detriment to the ride experience.

"I was speaking of the chassis, not the restraints. Lapbar only inversions didnt fly to well in the 70's and 80's.
Look how many Schwartzkopfs had them added."

Off the top of my head I can only think of a few Schwarzkopfs that had them added. Oscar Bruch's Thriller added them either in the middle of the end of the first fair season in 1986, Revolution had them added around 1992 and the your namesake at Flamingoland (I beleive) added the funky racing-style restraints when the ride opened in 2000. Which ones am I missing?

Adam

Re-read my and Rideman's comments about finances, technology, computers, etc.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM

The unfortunate thing is that Arrow finally got the corkscrew design right with Tennesse Tornado at Dollywood. They had the modern technology to take care of the transition problem without having to change the rolling stock and the computer power to get the design right. My rides on that thing felt as smooth as a B&M. Granted I rode in '99 and things have probably changed over time. The big problem with all this is that almost every park under the sun already has an Arrow corkscrew of some sort and probably really doesn't want to upgrade. Does S&S/Arrow offer the corkscrew today?? Due to market saturation, the new Arrow was doomed.

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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com

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NewYorkSuperman said:
[
You're right- it's not like he sat down, drew whatever he wanted, and then it became a coaster. Instead, he grabbed a wire-hanger from the closet, sat down, started bending it all around, and then it became a coaster. Just look at Pepsi-Max Big One. What IS that ride?
-Chris K-

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Anyone who is critical of the wire method of designing rides is simply an uninformed idiot running their mouth because their brain is permanently in the "off" position. Fact of the matter is, it was a pretty brilliant idea, and here's why. A straight wire bent into ANY shape by applying a moment and a force at two different points minimizes jerk (jerk as a technica term, da/dt) between those two points. With this method you can make wonderful helices, loops,corkscrews, etc. Ever wonder why people complain about rough "transitions" instead of "beat the hell out of me the entire time"? It's because with this method you get minimized jerk except at a finite number of points, where it's anyone guess. I can do the derivation of this if anyone's interested, but chances are if you're of the opinion that toomer just bent coat hangers cause he was stupid, you wouldn't understand it anyway.

Without proper computers to do the numerical simulations, this seems pretty SMART to me, not stupid. The wire is simply a mechanical calculator. If you come up with a faster and cheaper way to minimize jerk given an approximate ride layout without anything more than a $10 pocket calculator, let me know.

John, who thinks that armchair engineers are worse than armchair generals. You try designing and building a coaster and then let me know. It's hard. Just ask Raven-Phile

Haha - Yeah, it's no easy task. Countless nights of working until sometime between 5 and 7 AM, running out of materials and having no places open to buy them, AND getting hit on the head by a hammer from 11 feet up were just SOME of the highlights. It was a lot of fun, though.

What he was referring to, though, was the video in which Ron was trying to describe Drachen Fire by bending a coat hanger and saying "that's a high speed ride all the way that thing is" it's really pretty amusing. he does the same thing with Viper at SFMM and he even uses the same "that's a high speed ride all the ay that thing is" line. It's quite amusing.

-Josh
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Don't...Look....Back
*** This post was edited by Raven-Phile 4/4/2003 6:06:34 PM ***