Pro or Anti OTSR?
Dave--thank you for pointing this out. I tried to explain this to a fellow enthusiast for an hour one day and he just didn't get it. The so-called "centrifugal force" is actually just inertia at work. The actual force at work is the aforementioned centripetal force, which the seat actually exerts on the rider. And thus, the inertia of the rider actually offsets this centripetal force and keeps them in the car and pressed against the seat (Newton's Laws of Motion are so nifty). It can get kind of messy to figure out, and I'm just talking about basic things. It gives you a new sense of respect for the good people that design these rides, because they have to figure all sorts of forces on the rider, determine structural support forces, and figure out a way to keep us enthusiasts happy and enthralled.
-------------
Mamba--It's About to Strike
Adam Rentchler
-------------
Mamba--It's About to Strike
Adam Rentchler
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 4/4/2001. ***
Jeff said:
"No... they don't install them for the hell of it, they do it because of the decades of entrenched dogma regarding their "necessity" on looping coasters.
Dogma that came from where I wonder? The parks, the guess, insurance companies or a combo of the three? This is what no one can answer.
If insurance is the issue, why did Paramount just convert two of their loopers (with intense launches, mind you) to lap bars? Are you saying that they're uninsured?
No, I'm just asking the qusetion, why were they put there in the first place?
I'm not guessing anything here... I'm looking at the facts that I see with my own eyes. I see Premier Rides taking a bit of leadership and challenging a notion that some of us have said is crap to begin with: OTSR's provide no measurable safety advantage over lap bars.
Facts that you see with your own eyes? And the rest of us can't do the same?
I'm reminded of some park exec, who I won't name other than to say he worked for a major park, who tried to make an argument for OTSR's when he reached the Setpoint booth at IAAPA last November. (See photo: http://www.coasterbuzz.com/features/iaapa2000/gallery/img.asp?img=ia00setswing2.jpg ) His first words arriving at the booth weren't anything along the lines of "hello." He looked at the Super Saturator car and said the restraint wasn't enough.
Attempting to prove his point, he sat down and fastened the belt, then tried to wiggle out. It was too easy to get out, he said.
His know-it-all butt didn't have a chance of getting out. No chance at all.
What does that tell you? Just because you're used to the way things are doesn't mean you should accept them. If people did that, we'd still have slavery and OTSR's.
But I was never arguing that point. Whether they're actually needed or not is irrelavant to me really, I'm more interested in where this myth came from in the first place. My feeling is it was over anxious insurance companies due to "perceived" dangers of lawsuits from neck injuries, justified or not. Once again Jeff, were arguing two entirely different points. That's ok though.
If over the shoulder restraints can prevent 1 death or serious injury on a coaster, then they are well worth keeping. Saving 1 life is much more important than ANYTHING!
I seriously doubt that a lap bar can keep riders as secure if a coaster is stopped upside down such as the incident at Great America. In the case of the shoulder harness, the entire body is being supported by the shoulder harness. With just a lap bar, only part of the body is being supported, the rest is left hanging, working against the portion of the body that is secure.
The problem with the shoulder restraints that cause head banging is the poor design of the coaster themselves. Premier, arrow, and others should be looking at what Bolliger and Mabillard are doing correctly.
It surprises me that a Schwartzkopf shuttle loop would just have lap bars in this day and age. One misfire and the train does not get up to speed could be tragedy.
Safety is more important than ANYTHING.
I seriously doubt that a lap bar can keep riders as secure if a coaster is stopped upside down such as the incident at Great America. In the case of the shoulder harness, the entire body is being supported by the shoulder harness. With just a lap bar, only part of the body is being supported, the rest is left hanging, working against the portion of the body that is secure.
The problem with the shoulder restraints that cause head banging is the poor design of the coaster themselves. Premier, arrow, and others should be looking at what Bolliger and Mabillard are doing correctly.
It surprises me that a Schwartzkopf shuttle loop would just have lap bars in this day and age. One misfire and the train does not get up to speed could be tragedy.
Safety is more important than ANYTHING.
Super 7, believe it or not, a Schwarzkopf shuttle got stuck upside down in Europe several years back, with no problems. I was surprised, but it was great noone was hurt. I forget which coaster exactly it was. Anyone? I don't think it was Thunder Looper. THe name escapes me now.
-------------
- Peabody
-------------
- Peabody
Why do you doubt it? Several others in this thread have already given examples where people were perfectly secured with Schwarzkopf lap bars, while stuck inverted. GregLeg even gave his little anatomy lesson about which part of the body is strongest. Visit your local jungle gym and hang off of it by your legs. Ever notice gymnasts don't have high routines hanging from their shoulders?
super7 said:
"If over the shoulder restraints can prevent 1 death or serious injury on a coaster, then they are well worth keeping... I seriously doubt that a lap bar can keep riders as secure if a coaster is stopped upside down..."
Your statement seems to imply that your upper body would simply be ripped away from your legs in the event you are stuck inverted.
I'm still waiting for anyone to show me how OTSR's are safer.
-------------
Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
What's interesting is, the Schwarzkopf looper in Belgium (or wherever) that got stuck upside down in the loop had no injuries, with just a single lap-bar, but the Arrow Demon looper that got stuck with OTSR sent some folks to the hospital.
Excellent point, although I'd like to know what the nature of those injuries were and if they were caused by the shoulder harnesses. (Broken collarbones? Dislocated shoulders? Concussions? Or "just" bruising, which could happen to the thighs as well)
Although a trip to the hospital indicates something more serious than localized bruising...
-------------
--Greg
http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/
Although a trip to the hospital indicates something more serious than localized bruising...
-------------
--Greg
http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/
Fierce Pancake said:
"What's interesting is, the Schwarzkopf looper in Belgium (or wherever) that got stuck upside down in the loop had no injuries, with just a single lap-bar, but the Arrow Demon looper that got stuck with OTSR sent some folks to the hospital."
Regardless of these two situations. I would have to quess that the chances of someone slipping out of a lap bar are much greater than someone slipping out of a shoulder harness when stranded upside down.
Shoulder harness may hurt more in this situation but at least the chances of you falling to your DEATH are less.
To me that is what is most important. In
death there are no more coasters.
-------------
My name is Jason, and I'm addicted to coasters.
I think there are two main reasons OTSRs are installed:
1) Perceived security. Would anyone ride it if they thought they could fall out? To the untrained eye, an OTSR looks more secure than a 1" diameter pipe across your lap.
2) Actual security. Like it or not, an OTSR will keep a rider in the seat. In some rides it actually helps to keep limbs in the coach and not hitting a post. Anyone ever see BGW's reverse POV of Big Bad Wolf with the guy flailing his arms around? :) Take the Revolution for example. The local legend is that LA gangs would have "pledges" hop seats on the lift as part of initiation. OTSRs were soon added to keep riders in the seats. Lapbars will do the trick in case of fatal error, but do nothing for rider stupidity.
Another thing to ponder. There are three coasters being retrofitted this year from OTSRs to lapbars: PKI's and PKD's FOF, and Steel Phantom->Phantom's Revenge. Morgan is proving that Arrow corkscrew trains can be converted to a lapbar system. I wonder how long it will take for a park to try it out on an Arrow that still has loops.
-------------
Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
1) Perceived security. Would anyone ride it if they thought they could fall out? To the untrained eye, an OTSR looks more secure than a 1" diameter pipe across your lap.
2) Actual security. Like it or not, an OTSR will keep a rider in the seat. In some rides it actually helps to keep limbs in the coach and not hitting a post. Anyone ever see BGW's reverse POV of Big Bad Wolf with the guy flailing his arms around? :) Take the Revolution for example. The local legend is that LA gangs would have "pledges" hop seats on the lift as part of initiation. OTSRs were soon added to keep riders in the seats. Lapbars will do the trick in case of fatal error, but do nothing for rider stupidity.
Another thing to ponder. There are three coasters being retrofitted this year from OTSRs to lapbars: PKI's and PKD's FOF, and Steel Phantom->Phantom's Revenge. Morgan is proving that Arrow corkscrew trains can be converted to a lapbar system. I wonder how long it will take for a park to try it out on an Arrow that still has loops.
-------------
Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
Sunday, April 20, 1997 - At Bell's Amusement Park in Tulsa, Oklahoma, one person was killed and five others were injured when two roller coaster cars collided on the park's Wildcat roller coaster. The accident happened as a car was nearing the top of the lift hill. The mechanism holding the car onto the track failed, causing the car to roll back down the hill and crash into another car which was approaching the chain lift. The victim, a 14-year-old boy, was thrown from the car during the crash and struck his head on a steel support. Two other boys were also treated at a local hospital. The Wildcat had been in operation at Bell's Amusement Park since 1974. It was inspected just two weeks prior to the accident.
On October 24, 1997, the Oklahoma State Department of Labor released the following reports upon the conclusion of its investigation of the incident:
Friday, June 30, 1995 - At Worlds of Fun amusement park in Kansas City, Missouri, a 14-year-old girl died after sustaining a massive head injury in a 25-foot fall from the Timber Wolf roller coaster. The girl was reported to have been either standing or kneeling at the time of the accident.
In 1998, the girl's mother received $200,000 in a settlement reached with the Philadelphia Tobaggan Company, makers of the coaster, and Hunt Midwest Entertainment, former owners of the park.latest accident killed two people at Gillian’s Wonderland Pier in Ocean City, N.J., Saturday night.
Kimberly Bailey, 39, and her 8-year-old daughter Jessica, both from Pomona, N.Y., were killed when a car on the Wild Wonder roller coaster failed to reach the top of a 30-foot hill and hurtled backward, crashing into a second car in a loading area. Investigators believe the victims were thrown from the careening car.
One state official involved with the investigation says the failure of an anti-rollback device may have caused the accident. Two people who were getting into the second car suffered minor injuries.
The accident was the latest in several fatal mishaps this summer at amusement parks across the nation.
“This season has been quite saddening in that regard, and it’s certainly not normal,” said Joel Cliff, spokesman for the International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions.
There are 3 examples of deaths from people coming out of coasters with lap bars. A should restraint may have kept them in the car. The Worlds of Fun accident appears to be from rider stupidity, but again, it is much harder to get out of a shoulder restraint.
Looping or non looping, shoulder restraints hold more of the body in the coaster.
On October 24, 1997, the Oklahoma State Department of Labor released the following reports upon the conclusion of its investigation of the incident:
Friday, June 30, 1995 - At Worlds of Fun amusement park in Kansas City, Missouri, a 14-year-old girl died after sustaining a massive head injury in a 25-foot fall from the Timber Wolf roller coaster. The girl was reported to have been either standing or kneeling at the time of the accident.
In 1998, the girl's mother received $200,000 in a settlement reached with the Philadelphia Tobaggan Company, makers of the coaster, and Hunt Midwest Entertainment, former owners of the park.latest accident killed two people at Gillian’s Wonderland Pier in Ocean City, N.J., Saturday night.
Kimberly Bailey, 39, and her 8-year-old daughter Jessica, both from Pomona, N.Y., were killed when a car on the Wild Wonder roller coaster failed to reach the top of a 30-foot hill and hurtled backward, crashing into a second car in a loading area. Investigators believe the victims were thrown from the careening car.
One state official involved with the investigation says the failure of an anti-rollback device may have caused the accident. Two people who were getting into the second car suffered minor injuries.
The accident was the latest in several fatal mishaps this summer at amusement parks across the nation.
“This season has been quite saddening in that regard, and it’s certainly not normal,” said Joel Cliff, spokesman for the International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions.
There are 3 examples of deaths from people coming out of coasters with lap bars. A should restraint may have kept them in the car. The Worlds of Fun accident appears to be from rider stupidity, but again, it is much harder to get out of a shoulder restraint.
Looping or non looping, shoulder restraints hold more of the body in the coaster.
super7 said:
"Friday, June 30, 1995 - At Worlds of Fun amusement park in Kansas City, Missouri, a 14-year-old girl died after sustaining a massive head injury in a 25-foot fall from the Timber Wolf roller coaster. The girl was reported to have been either standing or kneeling at the time of the accident."
This blame of this accident lies on one thing only, STUPIDITY! The report even says that the girl was standing when she was tossed off the ride. If I remember correctly, I read an article in a local newspaper shortly after this accident that said that WOF ran test dummies in the trains after the accident without any restraints, and they didn't even fall off of the ride. And if you think that people cannot wiggle out of OTSRs, you are badly mistaken. There is no need whatsoever for an OTSR on a wooden coaster, period.
The other two accidents were caused by the park installing a faulty rollback device. And these coasters did not have the lapbars that would be needed for a looping coaster. The bars on FoF have a very different construction.
The bottom line is that most accidents, in my mind, are caused by rider stupidity, and the other ones were completely preventable if only the park had used the right hardware. This has nothing to do with OTSRs.
-------------
Mamba--It's About to Strike
Adam Rentchler *** This post was edited by The Rentch on 4/4/2001. ***
jdancisin said:
Regardless of these two situations. I would have to quess that the chances of someone slipping out of a lap bar are much greater than someone slipping out of a shoulder harness when stranded upside down.
Shoulder harness may hurt more in this situation but at least the chances of you falling to your DEATH are less.
To me that is what is most important. In death there are no more coasters.
And I disagree (that the shoulder harnesses are safer, I definitely agree that we don't need any coaster deaths ;) ).
Remember, a key phrase that the pro-lapbar contingent (like me) has been using is properly designed lapbars. Look at the lap bar on Son of Beast, Flight of Fear, Hypersonic, or even Millennium Force, and show me how you can squirm out of that seat. The combination of the lap bar plus seat sides on those, makes it IMPOSSIBLE to slip out without fracturing your femur and/or hips in multiple places to make your body bend in ways it can't, or your torso getting severed off at the waist. Neither is going to happen without catastrophic failure that'd be just as fatal with a shoulder harness anyway...
Now, there are rider size restrictions on such restraints, but we alreay HAVE those. People need to be at least X inches tall anyway. And I can EASILY slip out of Arrow harnesses if I wanted to (scooth up a bit in the train when they check the harness, then scrunch down and slip out). No WAY can I do that with a SoB, FOF, etc., lap bar.
-------------
--Greg
http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/ *** This post was edited by GregLeg on 4/4/2001. ***
GregLeg said:
"Remember, a key phrase that the pro-lapbar contingent (like me) has been using is properly designed lapbars. Look at the lap bar on Son of Beast, Flight of Fear, Hypersonic, or even Millennium Force, and show me how you can squirm out of that seat. The combination of the lap bar plus seat sides on those, makes it IMPOSSIBLE to slip out without fracturing your femur and/or hips in multiple places to make your body bend in ways it can't, or your torso getting severed off at the waist. Neither is going to happen without catastrophic failure that'd be just as fatal with a shoulder harness anyway..."
While I would argue that if you really wanted to you could get out of just about any restraint, I agree that it would take an concerted effort.
Anyway, the question seems to be why do we have OTSRs at all. Well the simple answer is that an OTSR is an effective restraint system. It is also the restraint that Arrow chose for its corkscrew coasters. Why they chose it, I have no idea. And I dont think anyone outside of those offices at that time really knows either. In any case, the subsequent designers, simply adopted this proven technolgy, because it was effective, and there wasnt seen an need to stray from it. If it aint broke dont fix it. I know many enthusiasts dont like it, but the horsecollars of the newer B&Ms and the older Arrows (not the megaloopers) didnt/dont really beat people up. The headbanging really wasnt *much* of an issue till the Arrow MLs (Anaconda, Shockwave, Steel Phantom) and the Premier Launchers (FOF, Freeze). And actually, if there hadn't been a need for a non-traditional lapbar for Sonny, we wouldnt see a change on the FOFs now.
For the most part, manufactuers got lazy when it came to restraint design and just went with what worked.
As for the OTSR on Revolution, I really dont have a good grip on why that change was made. Someone alluded to patron changing seat mid-ride. Perhaps SFMM felt that the current lapbar was not capable of confining riders. They then decided to switch to a different restraint. The OTSR design was already handy, so they used it. Could a different design be just as effective? Sure! There is always more than one engineering solution to a problem. But is it more cost effective to go with a proven design or to re-engineer from the ground up?
I wouldn't be suprised if we see more OTSR-less loopers in the future. Premier has presented a "better mousetrap". But realize this, they only came up with this restratint because Sonny needed to be OTSR-less. It is only a by-product that their other trains could be reto-fitted.
I'll holla,
jeremy
Not that this has much bearing on the discussion, but when I was working at Great America (Santa Clara) a few years back, the looping ship "Revolution" had an accident in which half of the ship's shoulder harnesses became unlocked while the ride was upside down!! However, nobody was either killed or hurt because they were all help in by lapbars. I think if it had been the lapbars that had come undone, folks would have been hurt.
But this is a very different ride from a coaster.
-------------
Decisions determine destiny; Destiny determines decisions.
But this is a very different ride from a coaster.
-------------
Decisions determine destiny; Destiny determines decisions.
The Bell's accident was caused by a very poorly machined in-house anti-rollback if I remember correctly. It wasn't made to manufacturer spec. Those rides aren't designed to handle that kind of impact regardless of the restraint. An OTSR would not have saved her life.
No restraint will contain someone who isn't properly secured. The girl who was tossed wasn't secured to begin with.
Now, on any modern Intamin, B&M or Premier coaster with lap bars, show me that you can get out. It can't be done with anyone who is within the manufacturer's guidelines.
-------------
Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
No restraint will contain someone who isn't properly secured. The girl who was tossed wasn't secured to begin with.
Now, on any modern Intamin, B&M or Premier coaster with lap bars, show me that you can get out. It can't be done with anyone who is within the manufacturer's guidelines.
-------------
Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
Jeff said:
"Now, on any modern Intamin, B&M or Premier coaster with lap bars, show me that you can get out. It can't be done with anyone who is within the manufacturer's guidelines.
-------------
Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com"
Show me someone, within or not within the "manufacturer's guidelines" that can get out of a OTSR.
As we all have experienced, ride operators are not always as responsible and attentive as they should be. Therefore the parks and ride designers must plan for the worst case scenario.
-------------
My name is Jason, and I'm addicted to coasters.
for every argument, there is an equal and opposite reargument.
I know that reargument is not a word but it flows better.
-------------
My name is Jason, and I'm addicted to coasters.
I know that reargument is not a word but it flows better.
-------------
My name is Jason, and I'm addicted to coasters.
2Hostyl said:
For the most part, manufactuers got lazy when it came to restraint design and just went with what worked.
I think Jeremy's hit the nail on the head here. The OTSR came about for whatever reason years ago, and most designers just go with it. They DO work, like them or not. Rides like Son of Beast and Flight of Fear are now showing that "conventional wisdom" has been misguided.
I wouldn't be suprised if we see more OTSR-less loopers in the future. Premier has presented a "better mousetrap". But realize this, they only came up with this restratint because Sonny needed to be OTSR-less. It is only a by-product that their other trains could be reto-fitted.
Again, I agree with this comment. If Premier hadn't bucked "conventional wisdom" (out of necessity) for Son of Beast, who knows how long it would have been before a looping coaster with a lapbar would have been built.
(Gee, could anyone have predicted 2 years ago that the enthusiast crowd would be PRAISING Premier for something? ;) )
-------------
--Greg
http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/ *** This post was edited by GregLeg on 4/4/2001. ***
There's really not a situation that an OTSR is needed where a more comfortable seatbelt (even a shoulder seatbelt like in cars) wouldn't suffice. If a train crashed or got stuck upside down, this combined with a lapbar would be more than adequete to keep a rider on board. I'm not even convinced the seatbelt is necessary, though it's nice given the prospect that the lapbar/otsr locking mechanism could fail.
I suspect there's more than one reason why Premier has designed this new lapbar system, I'm guessing it wasn't JUST because of Son of Beast. Apparently many of of the lawsuits against parks and ride manufacturers are due to riders claiming injury from head banging rides, of which Premier's coasters are some of the most notorious. The man who called me hoping I'd testify on his behalf mentioned he was working on over 40 such cases involving head trauma. If this is true, that's a lot of pocket change going around if the claims are being settled out of court. It's in Premier's best interest to stave off some of these claims, justified or not, by designing restraints that don't come into contact with the head.
OTSR restraints can be redesigned so they aren't hugging the head causing discomfort and posing a theoretical danger to riders. I believe Arrow's new side locking restraint may also be a step in this direction, though it's too early to say since no rides are using this yet.
The new Schwarzkopf retrofits are a definite step backwards though, what they did to Texas Tornado was even worse than the accordion seats it started out with.
*** This post was edited by Fierce Pancake on 4/4/2001. ***
I suspect there's more than one reason why Premier has designed this new lapbar system, I'm guessing it wasn't JUST because of Son of Beast. Apparently many of of the lawsuits against parks and ride manufacturers are due to riders claiming injury from head banging rides, of which Premier's coasters are some of the most notorious. The man who called me hoping I'd testify on his behalf mentioned he was working on over 40 such cases involving head trauma. If this is true, that's a lot of pocket change going around if the claims are being settled out of court. It's in Premier's best interest to stave off some of these claims, justified or not, by designing restraints that don't come into contact with the head.
OTSR restraints can be redesigned so they aren't hugging the head causing discomfort and posing a theoretical danger to riders. I believe Arrow's new side locking restraint may also be a step in this direction, though it's too early to say since no rides are using this yet.
The new Schwarzkopf retrofits are a definite step backwards though, what they did to Texas Tornado was even worse than the accordion seats it started out with.
*** This post was edited by Fierce Pancake on 4/4/2001. ***
jdancisin said:
Show me someone, within or not within the "manufacturer's guidelines" that can get out of a OTSR.
Well, I can slip out of the Arrows with some planning, but that wasn't Jeff's point. Jeff was saying that a lap bar is sufficient.
As for how -- I need an empty seat next to me, with that harness ALL the way down (or up, but that's not likely ;) ). Then when I get in the train, I need to sit "taller" than my real height, so that the restraint doesn't come down all the way. Then I sit down as far as I can, and with only a little bit of work slipped out the side, on Corkscrew at CP. I did it to prove a point once, while the train was still in the station.
For the record, I'm 5'4", ~125lbs. At the time I was actually a bit heavier. I haven't tried in a while (no point, I don't have a deathwish), and I'm less flexible than I used to be so I may not be able to pull the same stunt anymore, but I HAVE done it.
-------------
--Greg
http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/
*** This post was edited by GregLeg on 4/4/2001. ***
You must be logged in to post
