Pro or Anti OTSR?
That certainly helps back up my original opinion.
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My name is Jason, and I'm addicted to coasters.
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My name is Jason, and I'm addicted to coasters.
What about the Arrow concept of the restraints which come from the sides like putting on a coat, doesn't that satisfy both arguements???
The fact of the matter is, a park has added lap bars to a ride with a corkscrew. When a park makes a move like this, there is simply NO DOUBT that it is safe. Parks can't just say go around trying stuff for the fun of it. One accident and a ride, not to mention the park, is permanently tarnished. On a more practical note, if you were to position a lap bar like FOF's in the proper fashion, I doubt you could wiggle your way out of there even if you tried your hardest! The human leg simply does not bend in a way that would allow you to get out.
SLFAKE said:
"In the loops the centrifugal force holds you in your seat, in other types of inversions inertia would throw you out of your seat and OTSR's are needed"
::steps of soapbox::
Have a nice day...
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Acme Forum Signature v3.0
Josh said:
"if you were to position a lap bar like FOF's in the proper fashion, I doubt you could wiggle your way out of there even if you tried your hardest! The human leg simply does not bend in a way that would allow you to get out"
I agree. I have seen small people wiggle out of Arrow and B&M OTSRs just to see if they could, but I have never seen anyone wiggle out of a firmly pressed lap bar ala Intamin hypers.
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- Peabody
When has a park ever added shoulder bars to a ride with a corkscrew?
The fact is, until a week ago, no ride had ever executed a corkscrew without shoulder bars. Not because it couldn't be done, but because nobody had bothered to do it. Now it's been done.
As for the "well, it feels safer" argument...
Given the purported purpose of a roller coaster...given the opinions espoused by countless "experts" on various Discovery Channel shows about why people ride roller coasters in the first place...I'd think that would be a good argument against shoulder bars! After all, the real design challenge is to get riders thinking what? "OMIGOD WE ARE GOING TO DIE!!!" of course! Then, of course, making certain that everybody makes it safely back to the unloading platform.
One of the stated purposes of the roller coaster is to present a rider with the sense of extreme danger while insuring that it is, in fact, perfectly safe. The idea is to make sure the ride is safe, NOT to make it feel safe.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
The fact is, until a week ago, no ride had ever executed a corkscrew without shoulder bars. Not because it couldn't be done, but because nobody had bothered to do it. Now it's been done.
As for the "well, it feels safer" argument...
Given the purported purpose of a roller coaster...given the opinions espoused by countless "experts" on various Discovery Channel shows about why people ride roller coasters in the first place...I'd think that would be a good argument against shoulder bars! After all, the real design challenge is to get riders thinking what? "OMIGOD WE ARE GOING TO DIE!!!" of course! Then, of course, making certain that everybody makes it safely back to the unloading platform.
One of the stated purposes of the roller coaster is to present a rider with the sense of extreme danger while insuring that it is, in fact, perfectly safe. The idea is to make sure the ride is safe, NOT to make it feel safe.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
OTSRs, as realized today, are a design abomination.
Any ride with any laterals that placed a foam rock next to the rider's ears is a terrible design.
The vest is better, but has some flaws of its own. Much more comfy, though. I like the 5-point harness if I *need* a shoulder restraint.
The lap bar should suffice in any *normal* situation. For a loop, it suffices in a disastrous situation. My concern would be an axle drop or a lock while inverted in a lateral element, such as a corkscrew or a heartline roll, where you could be stuck both upside down and sideways. I'd be afraid in this situation that a rider could fall out of the lapbar by sliding down the seat. A combo foot restraint would eliminate that threat, but as Hypersonic and Schwartzkopf's designs have shown, have rideability problems of their own.
Any ride with any laterals that placed a foam rock next to the rider's ears is a terrible design.
The vest is better, but has some flaws of its own. Much more comfy, though. I like the 5-point harness if I *need* a shoulder restraint.
The lap bar should suffice in any *normal* situation. For a loop, it suffices in a disastrous situation. My concern would be an axle drop or a lock while inverted in a lateral element, such as a corkscrew or a heartline roll, where you could be stuck both upside down and sideways. I'd be afraid in this situation that a rider could fall out of the lapbar by sliding down the seat. A combo foot restraint would eliminate that threat, but as Hypersonic and Schwartzkopf's designs have shown, have rideability problems of their own.
Actually, the worst thing it looks like to me is the combination of both OTSR and lap bar. Seen very well on TOGO coasters, their stand ups in particular. Those can get really ugly.
As long as an OTSR is properly designed, I have no problem with it. The decision between OTSR and lap bar should be based off of the design of the ride. Is it made for airtime? How bad is the lateral movement of the upper body in particular? I would love to see the world of hyper coaster and looping come together in one all encompassing coaster of doom. If the coaster is all about ibnversions, I'll tkae an OTSR. As long as it is not a stupid TOGO one. If it is made for air, give me a lap bar. I guess it is really up to the parks and designers. I would get the feeling that the GP would freak out about no OTSRs. I have had so much trouble explaining to people why OTSRs aren't necessary on such coasters as MF, the Magnum, SOB, etc. If it doesn't hurt me, I'll be happy. (Head swallowing OTSR=evil.)
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Coasters- a little slice of heaven
As long as an OTSR is properly designed, I have no problem with it. The decision between OTSR and lap bar should be based off of the design of the ride. Is it made for airtime? How bad is the lateral movement of the upper body in particular? I would love to see the world of hyper coaster and looping come together in one all encompassing coaster of doom. If the coaster is all about ibnversions, I'll tkae an OTSR. As long as it is not a stupid TOGO one. If it is made for air, give me a lap bar. I guess it is really up to the parks and designers. I would get the feeling that the GP would freak out about no OTSRs. I have had so much trouble explaining to people why OTSRs aren't necessary on such coasters as MF, the Magnum, SOB, etc. If it doesn't hurt me, I'll be happy. (Head swallowing OTSR=evil.)
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Coasters- a little slice of heaven
If parks want OTSR's why dont they just make some type of seatbelt type style one like they use on those slingshot bungee things
All your base are belong to us! *** This post was edited by joey isch on 4/3/2001. ***
All your base are belong to us! *** This post was edited by joey isch on 4/3/2001. ***
Craig says:
"I would love to see the world of hyper coaster and looping come together in one all encompassing coaster of doom"
Wasn't that what Steel Phantom did?
"I would love to see the world of hyper coaster and looping come together in one all encompassing coaster of doom"
Wasn't that what Steel Phantom did?
I'm in much agreement about this issue. I think they are done more for insurance purposes(getting these coasters approved in the first place) than for any real need in terms of safety. That said, I would not want to ride a Vekoma flying coaster or X with just a lap bar, Are you crazy? I do like the fact that new "improved" restraints are being developed for these types of attractions.
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 4/3/2001. ***
2Hostyl said:
Futhermore, I disagree that the majority of riders would be held upside down by their collars rather than their femurs (thighbones). The majority of OSTR I have seen have the bottom of the 'U' is adjacent the thighs of the rider, so I would argue that the femurs would still be the load bearing members.
Ok, I'll grant you this point. Especially on shorter riders, like me, there my torso isn't "long" enough to actually REACH the shoulder portion of the OTSR on most rides. However, that's what causes the headbanging problem in the first place -- the shoulder harness is positioned directly around my ears, resulting in major boxing in just about any kind of turn or other lateral motion.
And for large riders there the OTSR actually hits their shoulders first, well, they're the ones who'd MOST want the load on their thighs instead! ;)
Craig the Coaster Freak said
Actually, the worst thing it looks like to me is the combination of both OTSR and lap bar. Seen very well on TOGO coasters, their stand ups in particular. Those can get really ugly.
Funny you should mention those. I like the CONCEPT of the TOGO standup harness, although the implementation leaves much to be desired. Since the height adjusts, and it comes AROUND the rider instead of over, it doesn't bang the rider's heads. Now, the fact that the TOGO track is rough, and the restraint doesn't stay put while the ride is in motion (it won't release, but it CAN close further, resulting in unnecessary pressure around your chest), destroys any near-coolness the restraint would provide.
So what does that all mean? Well, for one thing, I may not mind the ArrowBATic restraint nearly as much as other OTSR's ;) (Assuming they don't have the same design flaw as the TOGO attempt).
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--Greg
http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/
*** This post was edited by GregLeg on 4/3/2001. ***
You may want to watch what you say about disparaging over the shoulder restraints in a public forum. I had some negative comments about the painful OTSR's on Joker's Revenge on my website, and now some doctor crusading for rollercoaster safety is threatening to subpoena me to help his case.
Some would say that OTSR restraints do more to harm riders than they do to protect them. That seems to be the crux of several lawsuits, in court or settled out of it by the parks. There are people out there claiming to have received serious brain injuries from being slammed against restraints adjacent to their heads.
Who am I to say if these rides are more dangerous than those with just lapbars? But I definitely prefer the lapbars.
Some would say that OTSR restraints do more to harm riders than they do to protect them. That seems to be the crux of several lawsuits, in court or settled out of it by the parks. There are people out there claiming to have received serious brain injuries from being slammed against restraints adjacent to their heads.
Who am I to say if these rides are more dangerous than those with just lapbars? But I definitely prefer the lapbars.
People keep saying OTSR's are used for "insurance purposes" but no one makes any reference to where that notion comes from. I don't buy it.
I'd like to see a case, any case, where an insurance underwriter actually studied the impact and reliability of OTSR's vs. lap bars. I doubt very much that any such study has ever been done.
The fact of the matter is, no one has any fact that indicates why a looper needs OTSR's. Premier Rides has been good enough to challenge decades of false perceptions by putting lap bars on a launched, looping ride.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
I'd like to see a case, any case, where an insurance underwriter actually studied the impact and reliability of OTSR's vs. lap bars. I doubt very much that any such study has ever been done.
The fact of the matter is, no one has any fact that indicates why a looper needs OTSR's. Premier Rides has been good enough to challenge decades of false perceptions by putting lap bars on a launched, looping ride.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
Thanks, Jeff...you just spared everybody the "chapter and verse" argument. :)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
(See? You don't need me to tell you this stuff...!)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
(See? You don't need me to tell you this stuff...!)
So I guess parks just invest in OTSRs just for the hell of it??? Or to purposely weaken their coasters? If you don't buy the insurance arguement, give me a better one, and then quote that chapter and verse. If were all just guessing here, then my reasoning is as good as any.
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 4/4/2001. *** *** This post was edited by DWeaver on 4/4/2001. ***
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 4/4/2001. *** *** This post was edited by DWeaver on 4/4/2001. ***
No... they don't install them for the hell of it, they do it because of the decades of entrenched dogma regarding their "necessity" on looping coasters.
If insurance is the issue, why did Paramount just convert two of their loopers (with intense launches, mind you) to lap bars? Are you saying that they're uninsured?
I'm not guessing anything here... I'm looking at the facts that I see with my own eyes. I see Premier Rides taking a bit of leadership and challenging a notion that some of us have said is crap to begin with: OTSR's provide no measurable safety advantage over lap bars.
I'm reminded of some park exec, who I won't name other than to say he worked for a major park, who tried to make an argument for OTSR's when he reached the Setpoint booth at IAAPA last November. (See photo: http://www.coasterbuzz.com/features/iaapa2000/gallery/img.asp?img=ia00setswing2.jpg ) His first words arriving at the booth weren't anything along the lines of "hello." He looked at the Super Saturator car and said the restraint wasn't enough.
Attempting to prove his point, he sat down and fastened the belt, then tried to wiggle out. It was too easy to get out, he said.
His know-it-all butt didn't have a chance of getting out. No chance at all.
What does that tell you? Just because you're used to the way things are doesn't mean you should accept them. If people did that, we'd still have slavery and OTSR's.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
If insurance is the issue, why did Paramount just convert two of their loopers (with intense launches, mind you) to lap bars? Are you saying that they're uninsured?
I'm not guessing anything here... I'm looking at the facts that I see with my own eyes. I see Premier Rides taking a bit of leadership and challenging a notion that some of us have said is crap to begin with: OTSR's provide no measurable safety advantage over lap bars.
I'm reminded of some park exec, who I won't name other than to say he worked for a major park, who tried to make an argument for OTSR's when he reached the Setpoint booth at IAAPA last November. (See photo: http://www.coasterbuzz.com/features/iaapa2000/gallery/img.asp?img=ia00setswing2.jpg ) His first words arriving at the booth weren't anything along the lines of "hello." He looked at the Super Saturator car and said the restraint wasn't enough.
Attempting to prove his point, he sat down and fastened the belt, then tried to wiggle out. It was too easy to get out, he said.
His know-it-all butt didn't have a chance of getting out. No chance at all.
What does that tell you? Just because you're used to the way things are doesn't mean you should accept them. If people did that, we'd still have slavery and OTSR's.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
I don't really mind OTSR's as long as they don't cause me pain. Most coasters would be better off without them, but as long as they don't cause pain I wont be upset about it.
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Home Park: Knotts Berry Farm!
but also Disneyland and DCA
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Home Park: Knotts Berry Farm!
but also Disneyland and DCA
I hate how everybody talks about CENTRIFUGAL force. CENTRIFUGAL force is NOT a real force, it is fictious and is not a real thing, it was given just a name. If everybody wants to be scientifcally correct, it is called CENTRIPETAL force. CENTRIPETAL force is that real force that pushes riders to the inside of a train. I just want everyone to know that centrifugal force is not real and is not a scientific name but centripetal force is real and is used scientifically. Oh and OSTR's are NOT needed at all. The amount of g's sustained on the body is enough to push a rider into the back of the seat. The shoulder harness is not needed. If there are not enough g's to begin with such as going through a loop, then there should not be a loop at all and I don't know of any loop that does not put enough force on the body to keep it compressed in the seat. Such as the SDL at Hershey and SOB at PKI show that lapbars are all that is needed and even lap bars are not needed. Lap bars are only needed for a significant amount of airtime, eventhough most airtimes won't produce enough air to push a person out of a train except maybe Jackrabbit at Kennywood (man that double dip threw me out of the train. That is one major piece of airtime!!!) So OSTR's are scientifically not needed at all on looping coasters, nor are lap bars. And ur science lesson for the day is CENTRIFUGAL FORCE IS NOT REAL BUT CENTRIPETAL FORCE IS REAL AND SCIENTIFICALLY CORRECT.
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Dave
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Dave
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