Preservation vs. Reality
In reality we're not doing much, but we're a small company and had to start somewhere. On the inside cover of our 2004 calendar we listed ongoing preservation efforts and the organizations who would appreciate a donation of time and money. And to compliment that we featured Chippewa Lake's Big Dipper, in all its rotting glory, in December. Ironically that was the photo that bothered people the most, so we've decided that going forward each month will feature a operating coaster, moving the entire preservation message to the inside cover.
In a nutshell, all we can do now is bring awareness to the issue. We're not forcing anyone to believe in it and we understand that not everyone will think its an important issue. But if some people decide to help those efforts or add in a few small parks, especially those who are on the edge, while on their trips to the majors we feel we've done something, no matter how little. Hopefully as we grow we can do more. What that "more" will be we don't know right now.
But I don't feel comfortable sitting back and doing nothing.
Condition. I you gotta basically replace most of the wood on it, You would probably be better off building new.
How well it would fit their parks? I could easily see a Jr. Wooden coaster in Holidogs Funtown and theres room to do it. However I can't force em to do anything and wouldn't even attempt to do so. The Hint is all I can offer.
Chuck, who cares not to bicker about it because it takes time and effort away from those who care enough to do their very best.
Jon
We (the WCFC) are NOT trying to save parks here. We're not in the business of attracting investors and purchasing small parks and turning them into profit-makers. I know the whole story about how business are around to make money and they fold when they don't. I graduated college with a degree in business and am a "businessman" by trade. I don't need another person spelling out for me how a company has to be profitable to survive. I get that. Most elementary school students do, too, so there's no need to keep on driving that point home.
It is our goal to bring awareness to classic parks and coasters and establish support for current and future preservation efforts. Mamoosh hit the proverbial nail on the head. With S&D Greetings' Wood Coaster Calendars, they are doing a small part to bring awareness to the issue of wood coasters and the parks in which they reside. As a small company, they are doing their small part. The WCFC is publishing a quarterly newsletter and is petitioning small parks to consider the idea of coaster preservation when it comes time for them to invest. As a club, we are doing our small part. So are ACE, NAPHA and a number of other individuals and groups that would rather see coasters saved than destoyed. All those factions, working together, will surely make some kind of a difference. If the Starliner is moved from Miracle Strip to a park in YOUR area of the country, are you really going to complain? Is that such a bad thing?
The issue at hand, after three pages of posting, is still: What is wrong with a preservation effort? We don't expect everyone to agree with us and see things from our point of view, but on the flip side of the coin, how is our point of view bothering those that don't see it our way? We're not calling anyone at dinner, asking them to donate money. We're not advertising our efforts with annoying pop-up ads. We're not rolling people as they walk down the street and taking the cash from their wallets. So really... what the hell is the big deal here?
Nitro Dave, you say that Thrillerman is doing a disservice to our efforts by being as vocal as he is. I disagree. This argument has come up before, and we have no choice but to defend our actions. You are right in a way, though... each time we do defend ourselves, we do get more support. Why do you think that is? If this was such a useless thing to do, if we are truly doing something that is stupid and wrong, then why don't you drop by our site and tell that to all of the people that we have the support of?
I can't help but wonder how many people would be pro-preservation if Jeff suddenly told everyone that he was changing his mind?
I see the word 'awareness' being tossed about. I'm reading everyone's comments, but what am I missing?
Who are we making aware?
Other enthusiasts? The average joe? Park and ride owners and operators? Someone else? All of the above?
I ask because I still don't see the plan here.
Again, I'm not 'against the cause' or saying it's useless or whatever, I just think I'm not getting it at this point.
You guys are explaining what the plan is, but I still don't see how it changes the overall situation for any given 'endangered coaster' (heh).
After you promote awareness and gain support then what?
Charles Nungester said:
I must respectfully dissagree that Kennywood needs phantom to survive period.Chuck, who hasn't been there since 2000 but it was the least ridden ride in the park and I don't think Revenge instantly made the park any more poplular than it was already..
You couldn't be anymore wrong. I've been back to Kennywood three times since the conversion (and probably will again this season). PR is definitely a draw for me. The ride actually has lines, something Steel Phantom couldn't claim when I was there. Yes, I love the rest of the park also. *** Edited 4/18/2004 12:25:35 AM UTC by Intamin Fan***
Chuck, who also said Kennywood is alot more than one coaster
Nitro Dave said:
And above all, take off that silly ass martyr hat..
Waitaminnit.
Is the hat in the shape of an ass or does it just simply read 'Ass Martyr?'
We need clarification here. Judges?
-CO
*** Edited 4/18/2004 4:40:18 AM UTC by CoastaPlaya***
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
When we talk about awareness, we are primarily talking about two different groups of people within the industry: Those that operate parks with wood coasters and those without wood coasters. For example...
One way to bring awareness to wood coasters is to support the parks that already have these rides. Six Flags, Cedar Fair and Paramount parks obviously fall into that category, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Williams Grove, Canobie Lake, Funtown USA and Camden Park. All examples of parks that have wood coasters but could probably benefit from more support than they get. Going back to what Mamoosh was getting at- if we are able to convince a few people to include those parks as destinations in their travel plans, then I believe we have made a difference. Support comes from patronage, and a hundred dollars in the cash registers at those parks means that much more support. Sad to say, but that little bit of money could make the difference between daily profit and daily loss for a park. That is how critical the situation is for some of these small parks.
Another way to bring awareness to wood coasters is to illustrate how important wood coasters are to parks. Sure, we enthusiasts enjoy them, but more importantly, they make excellent additions to parks. The first issue of Timber Tales, our quarterly publication, features a short but meaningful interview with Tom Wages of Lake Compounce. Tom answers questions about how Boulder Dash, the obvious "star" of the park,, contributes to the overall sucess of The Lake. It is our intention that Timber Tales serves as an endorsement for the wood coaster so that it becomes an option for parks that are looking to either expand of just find a new way to satisfy their current patrons. What better way to promote the idea of a wood coaster than by showing potential buyers the advantages of making such an investment? Our reasoning is, if a wood coaster has helped a park such as Lake Compounce, then why not preach that and show other parks that such an investment works for both the park owners and the park patrons? That is the approach that we are taking. And if that appoach manages to find a home for an abandoned wood coaster, then all the better.
I hope that helps somewhat... I know that the idea of coaster preservation is a topic of great debate, but I'm hoping that a little explantation shows what we are trying to accomplish here! *** Edited 4/18/2004 8:14:08 AM UTC by Rob Ascough***
Dreamland (in Margate, Kent) is home to the 1921 Scenic Railway, one of only two left in this country with the flanged wheels, no upstops and someone operating a brake on the train. It's current owner wishes to sell the land to real estate developers, so the coaster will be demolished to make way for housing/cinemas etc. Under the existing ownership, the park has been allowed to become run-down to make the prospect of an amusement park look less viable. At this time, the Sceinc Railway is the only ride left on site.
The local council are "consulting" to find the best use for the site, which they seem to think is facilities for the locals, while Margate is a tourist resort, and hence needs attractions to bring those tourists in - a cinema or bowling alley won't do that.
The company carrying out the consultation were not even aware that at least TWO successful theme park operators were interested in the site, and are willing to pay the current market price for the site as well as investing millions of pounds in the park to make it a tourist attraction once more.
So this is an ideal example of where enthusiasts can get involved. We have been lobbying the council, filling out consultation questionnaires, attending council meetings, holding special events to get the local press out and reporting our side of the story.
It still looks like the council simply want to "do away" with Margate's Dreamland, but they have said that government money would be needed to develop the alternatives - while we know of solutions that would need no such money.
You can spend a lot of time and effort on any such campaign - you need to be sure that it is something you can win. We know that there is a viable solution to saving Dreamland and the classic Scenic Railway - so this is where our energy is going.
The Magic Eye has an interview with the guy co-ordinating the coaster-enthusiasts action in close liaison with the other interested parties:
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/themagiceye/nicklaisterinterviewpage1.html
So - I agree with Jeff. Don't waste your time and effort. Instead, stick to a campaign that you have a chance of winning and go for it! *** Edited 4/18/2004 1:43:25 PM UTC by Robster***
In my case, at the moment it's mainly just the enthusiast community. As you can see from the responses in this thread there is a portion of the enthusiast community that stick to visiting the big parks. I'm not making a value judgement with that statement...in fact it wasn't many years ago that I was one of those enthusiasts.
I'm aware that people choose to spend their money however they feel. I'm aware that a park with 10 coasters is usually more appealing than a park with one. I'm aware that, for some people, some parks will be too costly and too out-of-the-way to visit.
So, to use our calendar as an example, we try our best to feature coasters from the big themers and the small traditional parks, and we throw in a message about preservation, and hope to inspire action. If a few people decided to add in a few small parks while on their trip then I feel I've done something, no matter how little.
However we also have an opportunity to reach beyond the enthusiast community. We have a few parks who have expressed interest in selling some of our products and that would be one way to reach the general public.
"After you promote awareness and gain support then what?"
S&D isn't big enough to handle the "then what?" portion of the equation. Hopefully someday we will be and it could manifest itself in a number of ways, including opening a park where we can feature both new rides and saved rides. I guess I'll cross the "then what?" bridge as I come closer to it.
It makes more sense. At this point it doesn't seem so much about trying to save a coaster that is certainly on the way out (like Starliner), but rather doing things to prevent the situation from happening in the first place.
So I guess I a roundabout way I've done it and encouraged it myself. On the Conneaut page of my site I encourage folks to stop out for a visit and support a park in danger. I never really thought of it as a preservation effort, more of a warning to enjoy before it's gone, but it falls into the same train of thought. Heck, we even bought the kids a few T-shirts at Conneaut (that we normally probably wouldn't have) just to "help out".
Here I am quaestioning the whole thing and doing it myself! :)
Increasing support and preventing loss at least makes sense to me and that's where my confusion was. I had visions of people taking SBNO coasters and finding them new homes or money to open them back up.
It seems a lot more realistic now that I'm following the idea.
First and most obvious: the marketing and promoting of a new ride. Since it's mostly enthusiasts who'll know where it came from it'll be a brand new ride for the community the park serves. For example, moving Skyliner from Mircale Strip in Florida to Del Grosso's near Altoona [a park that has made it known they're in the market for a woodie] and, viola it's suddenly a brand new coaster to those who visit the park.
Two, the park can also promote the fact that they've saved a piece of history. Sure, that may not be of great importance to younger folks [sorry about the stereotype] but something like that does appeal to familes and older folks who still ride and who just may have fond memories of that long-gone woodie they rode in their youth. And it gives the park some prestige.
At least that's how I see it. Or am I just wacked?
For what it's worth, I certainly enjoyed my trip around the Comet at Great Escape, and had no idea that it was a rescued ride until I was on the platform waiting for it.
And, in light of the discussion, I notice that Indiana Beach is only a handful of hours out of my way to SFGAm for CBuzzCon. So, it looks like I'll be taking a side trip to LoCoSuMo.
There. One small step.
mOOSH
As long as you continue to make it personal you aren't making any argument with me. I haven't said "that's life" or that you should get over it. My point has always been to show me some way to make it happen beyond good intentions. To date, that hasn't happened.
Thrillerman said:
But dammit Jeff, at least we are trying to do something constructive and positive with our time instead of taking the easy way out like most people... Everytime someone mentions that a part of their life is about to be destroyed or taken away, you seem to be the first person to coldly keep metioning how that is just life and to just get over it. You should applaud us for our efforts instead of tearing us down all the time.
You're talking to someone surrounded by defunct parks, and I've been to the site of each one. Puritas, Chippewa, Idora, Buckeye Lake, Shady Lake, Euclid Beach... been there. It's fun for me to see these places and imagine what they were like "back in the day." That's about where my interest ends. I just don't care enough beyond that to have any strong feelings about it. The only argument you make is that somehow makes me a bad person or one of indifference. I suppose I'll give you indifference, but the bad person part is nonsense.
I have a T-shirt that says, "People too weak to follow their own dreams are always quick to discourage others." I believe that with every bone in my body. What I'm doing here is not discouraging anyone; I'm challenging you to think things out, in my characteristically blunt and matter-of-fact kind of way. Your response has been only personal attacks, not an explanation about how you'll reach your dream.
There's the smartest thing I've read.
Nitro Dave said:
Your problem isn't that Jeff's not addressing your argument -- your problem is that his argument doesn't agree with your argument, and therefore it must be wrong.
More insults. How will that further your cause? My goals for the site are not relevant.
What are your goals with this site Jeff? What does that screaming loudmouth image in your logo really represent? I think I have a pretty good idea.
'Moosh has made some good points, and I think Rob has his head in the right place even if I don't personally buy into the feasibility of his goals, but at least they're arguing real points. Stick to that, Jon, if you expect to be successful.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Lord Gonchar said:It makes more sense. At this point it doesn't seem so much about trying to save a coaster that is certainly on the way out (like Starliner), but rather doing things to prevent the situation from happening in the first place.
So I guess I a roundabout way I've done it and encouraged it myself. On the Conneaut page of my site I encourage folks to stop out for a visit and support a park in danger. I never really thought of it as a preservation effort, more of a warning to enjoy before it's gone, but it falls into the same train of thought. Heck, we even bought the kids a few T-shirts at Conneaut (that we normally probably wouldn't have) just to "help out".
You're right, Gonch, awareness is what we are primarily about. Making people aware of the small treasures that dot the landscape of this country is something that seems small and insignificant in the fight to save those parks but it is actually an extremely powerful weapon. I can't tell you how many times I have engaged in conversations with people about amusement parks and I turn them on to little places such as Canobie, Conneaut and Lake Winnie. They wind up visiting these places that they never heard of, or never considered going to, and end up falling in love with the coaster or the park itself because it is so different from the theme parks that they are used to.
But while awareness is a good thing, there are other steps that we can take to further our cause. A number of our members have made some pretty good progress when it comes to contacting small amusement parks and making them aware of a few mid-sized wood coasters that are currently endangered and very much available. It is our hope that we can not only make parks aware of what options they have when it comes to making investments in new rides but also educate them on the benefits of adding a wood coaster. We point to Holiday World, Indiana Beach, the Great Escape, Knoebels and Lake Compounce, showing them the level of sucess that can be had when a new wood coaster is added to the park. We try to show them, with a solid membership base and a quality publication, that people feel strongly about this type of ride and the general public does, too.
I have high hopes for the Starliner. Its a compact coaster in good condition- two things that serve as fantastic selling points. I don't doubt that the Starliner will find a new home. There is also an honest-to-goodness campaign underway to save the Clementon Jack Rabbit. The ball has just started rolling, but interest is there, and to be perfectly honest, I think there is an excellent chance that something may come of that as well.
By mentioning Conneaut Lake on your site, you are doing your small part to promote a classic amusement park that needs every patron it can get. Like I said, it may be a handful of people that make or break the park. By mentioning the park, more people visit and more people tell others about the great time they had. Word of mouth is a great form of advertising.
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