Preservation vs. Reality
Brett, I'm not sure if you were referring to me, but I have not ONCE come to this site to whine and complain about a lack of support for my cause. I have learned that Coasterbuzz is NOT the place to go if you're looking to build a case for traditional parks. That's not an insult to anyone on this site, just something I've learned over time. This site is a great place to go if you want to talk about why TTD isn't running five trains today or why you feel the new ride names at GL are bad... not a place to go if you want to talk about the virtues of Waldameer or how much you miss the Coney Island Thunderbolt. Just the nature of the beast, I suppose.
You're right about people not going to parks as much as they go to the local pizza joint, but there is a need for more than one park in every region. I realize that many people visit a park once or twice a year, but perhaps a properly-run park could change that. I wonder how many Santa Claus IN locals visit Holiday World on a regular basis because the park is so good?
Enjoy skiing Brett... where are you headed? I can't imagine snow right now... we have beautiful sunny weather here in NJ!
Just think it would be a good idea to try and get ACE and other clubs to focus on the same one or two really good relocatable (if that is word) coasters.
JW
Impulse-ive said:
(I think Coraopolis has the most pizza shops per person in the country - right Gonch?)
Ha! I have no idea. It sure does seem to be hard to find one that will deliver to us.
There are two Pizza Hut locations near us. One is 3.25 miles and the other is 3.79 - neither will deliver to us as we're out of their '3 mile radius' - bah!
And what's with Domino's in western PA? Why are they so scarce in the area? Everywhere else I've lived has been pretty much 1-to-1 with Pizza Hut, but in western PA it's more like 10-to-1 in Pizza Hut's favor.
We're forced to use the local places - and even then there's only 2 or 3 that will bring us food.
Anyway...let me toss a little on topic info in too:
People around here go to Kennywood because it's here. If there was a more "commercial" larger park as close, they'd go there.
I still have much of my "GP" memory intact as I didn't really get into coasters until 4 or 5 years ago and I was 25 or 26. I remember being 'GP'. I also spent the first 18 years of my life growing up in western PA, north of Pittsburgh. I also spent 5 years there in the mid 90's.
To those people, Kennywood is the silly little park down the road. Sure, it's worth a stop every summer but it's lame (especially to kids in that 'too cool' age range). School trips from all over the area are taken there, grandma likes it, it beats an afternoon on the couch once or twice during summer. It has little to do with the "feel" of the park or how "traditional" it is - it's because it's the local park. It's not exactly a tourist destination.
Conneaut was the even sillier park up the road. Lame by all standard and more suited for the hicks who lived even farther away from the city than we did. A joke, really.
If you wanted to go somewhere cool and have a blast in the process, you made the trek to Cedar Point. It was what "real" amusement parks are supposed to be.
I grew up in Butler, PA (about equal distance between those two parks) I'd been to conneaut twice in my life and Kennywood probably a dozen times - 3 or 4 of those were school trips. However, in that time I'd spent probably 20 days at Cedar Point in various multi-day trips. Most people I'd known in life up to that point who were interested enough in amusement parks as entertainment from the area had about the same experience. I never even met anyone who'd been to somewhere like Knoebels and it was the same drive as Cedar Point for folks in that area. Knoebels is equivalent to Kennywood for people in that area. Enthusiasts and locals - end of clientel. I'd known a couple of people who'd gone to Hershey, but more for the whole "they make the chocolate here" thing than the amusement park.
I think the point is, bigger parks - more bang for the buck will win every time. As an enthusiast I can appreciate and enjoy Kennywood & Conneaut much more than I ever could as someone who made one or two amusement park stops a year.
Think like the average Dad, not the enthusiast. You're either planning a day trip for the family to have fun, blow off steam and forget the world or you're looking to do something really special. In this area option A meant a trip to Kennywood and option B meant a trip to Cedar Point.
I'm not really sure where I'm going with that - it was a stream of consciousness thing.
As enthusiasts, it's cute to try to "save the coaster" or "save the park", but if there's a better option nearby or the interest just isn't there - then life moves on and that coaster either becomes scrap wood, a rotting pile of lumber or the newest subdivision.
Like others here are saying, a handful of people who appreciate something like an old coaster - which by the average GP perception is nothing more than a boring outdated relic which generates no interest in wasting time or money on to experience - can't change the inevitable for the most part.
If the park is having money problems, then it must no longer be a viable business opportunity. Who'd sink money into a losing situation? I wouldn't and I'm one of the people that would be interested in this sort of thing.
Relocation is nice and all, but how many coasters have been saved by relocation? (not the SF ride swap program, but legitimate rides that would be gone forever if not torn down and rebuilt elsewhere - like Phoenix at Knoebels) That number is pretty damn low.
And finally, does it really matter - really? I thoroughly enjoy coasters. I spent a majority of my leisure time (and money) to check out as many as I can. But I can't think of a single one that I'd feel compelled enough to try to "save" if it were on its way out. Let things change, cherish the memories if a coaster means that much to you and look forward to the future. There's 1600 or 1700-some odd coasters out there just waiting for someone to ride them.
Playful sarcasm, not the nasty kind, in case any of you took that the wrong way (gotta include a disclaimer.)
It seems to me that the basic argument around here is that the GP doesn't realize the value of nostalgia. To that, all I can say is that I wholeheartedly disagree. There are plenty of people who buy into nostalgia. The Chrysler PT Cruiser, the Ford Thunderbird, the upcoming '05 Ford Mustang... they all gather interest because they all have some kind of nostalgic flair. Nostalgia does sell. Very well, I might add.
But whether or not the GP feels that old parks and old coasters are worth saving is really a moot point. First of all, my support for preservation has nothing to do with what the GP thinks. Just because most people supposedly don't care doesn't mean that I don't have to. If I want to engage myself in an effort to help save a coaster, I don't see how that hurts anyone. Trust me... if I try to help save a coaster and we ultimately fail, I won't come crying to everyone here, looking for sympathy. You have my word.
Yet the real truth of the matter is that some rides are worth saving. I won't pretend that Miracle Strip can be saved- if the land has been sold and slated for development, then that is pretty much a done deal. But if the coaster- a beautiful John Allen out-and-back in good condition- can be saved, then I am all for putting forth the effort to try and find a park interested in that ride. If a park such as DelGrosso's realizes that the Starliner is a good fit for them, adds the ride to their park and the crowds love it, then isn't that a good thing? A classic coaster was saved, a successful park added a money-making addition and the park's patrons found another reason to spend time and money there. If its possible to find a new home for such a coaster, then what exactly is the problem? Why should I not give it a shot? Why should a group of people not give it a shot?
As far as the number of relocated/saved coasters out there, the number is small but still significant. Phoenix. Skyliner. Wild One. Arkansas Twister. Great Escape Comet. That's five coasters that otherwise would have been lost if they weren't preserved. Considering the fact that the number of Schmeck, Allen and Miller rides out there is dwindling to around a dozen each, don't you think that an effort to save examples of those rides is a good thing? If not, then why is it a bad thing?
I find it hard to believe that there is not ONE ride in this world that you wouldn't try and save if it was at risk of leaving for good. But that's just me, I suppose. But with that said, if some other people fel differently, then why shouldn't they try?
After all, I DO want to be cute!
What are you going to do that a park or ride owner with a vested interest couldn't?
Sink money into its endless sieve of cost with no return? Try to sell it? Get it named a historic monument of some kind protected by law?
Roller coasters are nothing more than entertainment. They're put up as such in an attempt to profit - at least I'm not aware of any nonprofit coasters in operation. (except for Six Flags' - buh dum ching!)
If it's strictly business, I'd think the owner looked at every last avenue for profit before doing the inevitable.
If it's a business born of love, then you can be sure that all possible attempts were made.
Even the coasters that have been "saved" have been so because it made financial sense to someone along the line. Love of the ride may have been a factor, but without the numbers to back it up, those rides would be gone.
Unless you become some kind of coaster middleman/headhunter-type dealy-o negotiating deals between parks dropping rides and parks interested, then explaining the finacial advantages to both parties, you're going to do little in the long run.
Conneaut Lake for example. Yes those people lovingly paint the ride every year. But it's not still there because of that, it's still there because of the loans and the people behind those loans that still feel it's a financially viable option.
Sad but true.
Certain kinds of nostalgia do sell. Roller coaster nostalgia is limited to enthusiasts for the most part and the naysayers in this thread are proof to me that it doesn't even run through the community 100%.
I wouldn't do CPR on a body that's been deceased for a week - it would hurt to try but I still wouldn't bother.
Lastly, screw that brushing your teeth and bathing thing - chicks dig a guy who loves a coaster. It gets no more cute than that. :)
Of course not all of the enthusiast community is sold on nostalgia. Heck, when I was younger I'd skip the small parks for the large themers, too. So what? I have yet to hear a valid reason why an attempt at preservation shouldn't be made.
My take is mildly interested indifference.
Perhaps you are misunderstanding this attempt at preservation. Let me try and explain.
A park owner will most likely do everything within his or her power to keep their park profitable, and once their options are exhausted, then selling the business becomes an alternative. I'll agree with that. And I won't pretend to have enough money or business acumen to buy a park such as LeSourdesville and turn it into a profit center. The preservation that I'm speaking of has nothing to do with the preservation of Miracle Strip or LeSourdesville. It has do with making an effort to try and ensure that certain rides from those parks wind up elsewhere. This isn't park preservation as much as it is ride preservation. That is much more realistic.
It is said one of the best weapons you can wield is education. Makes sense, really. Education can breed awareness, and if awareness is spread, then the goal you are trying to achieve gets a little closer to you. For a long time now, it seems that the wood coaster has taken a back seat to the high-tech steel coaster. You can't dispute that fact: compare the number of new wood coasters to new steel coasters and you have proof. But the important fact remains that wood coasters are still a very viable way for a park to expand and grow. Look at Holiday World- if the park added a steel coaster that matches the Raven in size in 1995, do you think that they would be as highly-regarded as they are now? I'm not talking about enthusiasts, I'm talking about patrons in general. Would Holiday World (and Indiana Beach, for that matter) be the talk of the Midwest if they didn't have those awesome wood coasters?
Its obvious that the wood coaster is important, and all that our club aims to do is bring awareness to that genre of ride. And, by doing that, it will be possible to get in touch with people that feel the same way (as we have been doing) so that there is more support behind a preservation effort, should one come to fruition.
Perhaps I sound like Chris Godsey or the CPC (or whatever they were called) as I ramble on and on about a plan that seems like nothing more than smoke and mirrors. But I can assure you that there are many people- casual enthusiasts, charter members of ACE and people working within this industry that have not only pledged their support for us but also paid for memberships in this organization. They are eagerly awaiting their newsletters. They are eagerly awaiting plans to move forward with preservation efforts. You can debate all you want about how YOU feel, but you can't deny that there are other people that feel differently and feel that there IS a need for an organization that has this kind of focus.
If, over the course of a decade, we manage to somehow save one coaster through our efforts, then you'll see me smiling. Heck, even if we don't save anything, I'll be happy knowing we made the effort. *** Edited 4/16/2004 9:18:30 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
Now if someone could just help me with my pizza problem...
The more S&D Greetings products you buy the closer I'll get to opening Mooshland, and then I'll be able to save all the endagered coasters by buying them and erecting them at my park!
Yes...I said 'erecting.' ;)
mOOSH
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
But in all seriousness, if S&D were to get so big that a big card company [Hallmark, American Greetings] were to buy us you can bet I'd be building a park. But it would not be called Mooshland. Putzland, maybe, but not Mooshland ;)
Sorry for the momentary lighthearted interuption. And now back to the topic at hand.
I had always thought that Blackpool Pleasure Beach was the place to be but this park rocked. I was dismayed to read in First Drop that the park had been razed without much notice.
It was great little park but I can understand why it went the way of the retail development sadly :( Morecambe was kind of stagnant mostly and the park was the last bastion of *the good times* I am glad I got there though, happy memories :) You cannot keep on keeping on if you don't get the custom and that's the crux of the matter.
I just wish that some park somewhere (coughs @ M&D's) couldn't have taken the woodie off of their hands.
As has been stated, times change as do situations but we have to make the best of what we are able to. And SCBB goes to show it's not always new that is best!
-Jim (wishing i had a Jet Star II in the backyard right now :))
*** Edited 4/16/2004 10:35:03 PM UTC by Invy***
Here in northern NJ, we don't have a lot of Pizza Huts or Dominos. There was once a time when they were a lot more common, but during the past decade the majority of them have closed down. There actually used to be a lot of Pizza Hut restaurants but they closed down and some were replaced by take-out-only places. Its strange, because we don't really have any pizza chains in this area. Hardly any Little Ceasars, Papa Johns, CeCe's (sp?)... the majority of the pizza places here are all privately-owned deals. The majority named Tony's or Mario's, of course.
Could this be a parallel between the inevitable rise of the small amusement park against the corporate behemoth, or just a sign that I'm too hungry and tired to think properly and should probably eat or sleep now? You be the judge...I'll be in bed. ;)
Everytime someone mentions that a part of their life is about to be destroyed or taken away, you seem to be the first person to coldly keep metioning how that is just life and to just get over it. No sh*t. We're not that ignorant!! You don't share the same passion in this area that we possess. So don't deny us the pleasure either. You should applaud us for our efforts instead of tearing us down all the time. If you're too busy with all the great things you do in your personal life with other activities fine. But don't act like we are wasting our time either.
How would you like it if I kept telling you that something will eventually kill you anyways, so why keep wasting your time donating to cancer research? Then hide behind the same old tired line that it's just life and I'm just merely stating the facts. Again, NO SH*T. But, I'm not that insensitive towards things that people beleive in. Like Matt and Rob keep asking, what is so bad about preservation? Where is your problem with trying to save an important part of your life? Isn't that what cancer research is really about?...trying to save a life!!!
I'm growing very weary of this same old debate with you. I'm a man of action, not just words. If you've never drank the water, don't try and tell me how bad it tastes. And by that I mean you need to make an effort to travel to the small parks. because until you do, you have absolutely no right to bash them as relics the way you do. You're not allowed to wear those boots buddy. Until you've walked in my shoes, don't pass judgement on what I stand for. And I'll stand beside the many great people who have joined our organization and have actively become involved trying to accomplished our stated goals. What are your goals with this site Jeff? What does that screaming loudmouth image in your logo really represent? I think I have a pretty good idea.
Jon Blakemore
PS..When are you going to answer my original question instead of dodging it?!! Never mind...I already know the answer!! *** Edited 4/17/2004 12:46:12 PM UTC by Thrillerman*** *** Edited 4/17/2004 2:28:09 PM UTC by Thrillerman***
This "why fight it" apathy is what has reduced the world to being one giant strip mall and tract housing development. People don't have to be sheep and sit back and think trying to stop or change something is useless.
If one truly don't care about the fate of one of theses rides, fine. But please don't chastise the people who are trying to make a difference to a culture they love.
That is all. *** Edited 4/17/2004 4:00:14 PM UTC by Fafolguy***
But in reality yes amusement parks are a business and businesses fail, but there are measures to take to try and help save a park. On a realistic note odds are once a park is is bad bad financial shape and is deteriating that it isn't realistically salvageable, but it never hurts to try, if everyone just sat back and said whao that parks closing, oh well, then in essence there would be nothing left.
Jeff said:
(I didn't get any press release either. If you sent it via e-mail, it must've been taken out by the spam filter, or it seemed as credible as the CPC. Show me incorporation as a non-profit and I'll post whatever you want.)
Thrillerman, that sounds like an answer to me...
You know, your rant strikes me as extremely similar to something I read at the beginning of this semester: the University radio station's programming guide. The guide was basically a 24-page excuse to tell all fans of mainstream rock bands -- i.e. Metallica, Evanescence, etc. -- why they suck and don't know anything about good music because there are a bunch of underground bands that they're not listening to that are so much better than these bands. No explanations or justifications or anything -- just mindless blathering about how "you should listen to this because this is the real stuff!"
No argument. Just nonsensical propagandistic rambling.
Your problem isn't that Jeff's not addressing your argument -- your problem is that his argument doesn't agree with your argument, and therefore it must be wrong.
There are a couple things to be gathered from this: first of all, if you EVER hope to convince anyone of your point of view, you need to consider that there exists a counterargument, and with that counterargument comes a group of people who accept that counterargument, and therefore DON'T BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE. I know it's shocking to believe, because your rhetoric makes it sounds like the only person in the world who HASN'T turned over to your side is Jeff. News flash: YOU'RE IN THE MINORITY.
Secondly, before anyone will take you seriously, you need to completely remove the extremely obvious bias and hidden agendas you have here. Don't try to bullsh*t me or anyone else on this site because most of us are too intelligent to see through it: every time you get to yell and scream, you get one or two more plugs for your WCFC. And maybe if you yell loud enough, someone else will want to join. But what is so important about your interest in the club that you make this such a personal issue? Don't you realize that you're not impressing anyone and that you're really undermining any purpose your club may have by sounding so desperate, unintelligent, and one-sided?
It also doesn't help your case by saying that anyone who doesn't like a small park sucks (i.e. my independent radio example). The logic train appears to have left the station without you because there's a clear reason these parks are small: attendance and revenue are LOW. Simple as that. Do you think for one moment that if your precious small park saw a monumental increase in attendance, brought in a ton of bucks, and had a reasonable possibility for expansion that it wouldn't jump on that opportunity? More rides, more food stands, more parking, expanded area -- a few years of this pattern and voila! It's not a small park anymore. I guess now it would be the enemy too, wouldn't it?
I'd like to think (though sometimes it's suspect) that everyone on this site comes here and discusses rides because they all have a passion for roller coasters. I know I do. But, as with everything in life, there's a need for temperance and moderation. There are more important things in life -- to me, there's my family, my girlfriend, my friends, Yankee baseball, my studies, pool, bowling, my other extracurricular activities, etc.; to Jeff, there's his wife, his job, his volleyball team, etc. -- than trying to get everything and everyone to revolve around one little circle.
Not everyone is going to subscribe to your idea, and your refusal to accept that this is possible seems a logically progressing outgrowth of your refusal to accept the business aspect of our hobby. Not everything is as clearly black and white as you'd like it to be, sorry to break the news to you.
And lastly, what is so damn important to you about having Jeff validate your club? He's one guy, as normal as the rest of us, and yet every one of your posts seems like a personal strike against him. Are you just pissed off because he didn't give props to your press release? Aww poor baby, let me catch that tear for you. Maybe he didn't get it; maybe he missed it; maybe he just didn't feel like it. It's his prerogative. There's something to be said about someone who's so desperate to gain one particular person's approval that he goes to the lengths you have (and, no doubt, will continue to go to).
So bottom line, before you show up to argue, make sure you've got an argument with you. Learn to accept that people will disagree with you. Give Jeff a f***ing break, for God's sake. And above all, take off that silly ass martyr hat, because you certainly don't seem ready to let this die any time soon.
For example, it's one thing to say "Save the whales!" It's another to:
* donate money to the American Cetacean Society ,
* picket SFMW to "Free Shouka!"
* go out in a Greenpeace boat and try to disrupt a
whaling ship.
So, what is the WCFC doing to save these rides, other than telling the rest of us that we're shills for The Man?
*** Edited 4/17/2004 6:10:30 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
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