Preservation vs. Reality
I will agree with you that coaster preservation efforts are few and far between. Since the Great Escape Comet, there has not been a major wood coaster relocation. That's a reason why the relocations of the Hillcrest Little Dipper and the Race World Thunder Eagle are important. I think that the saving of LTD was the last true preservation effort we've seen. I'm sure that statistic has a lot to do with the fact that a LOT of new wood coasters were built by CCI at fairly low prices, thus making it smarter to build a new, custom coaster rather than bothering with an older ride that needs to be taken down and rebuilt. But now that the days of "budget" wood coasters by CCI are over, I think that the door is wide open for preservation once again. Now its just going to take a bit of effort to get the preservation ball rolling again after being idle for so long. That's what certain individuals, such as myself, are trying to accomplish. An uphill battle? You bet. But not an impossible one. If ONE wood coaster can be saved, then it was worth it. The world will never again see a brand-new John Miller, Herb Schmeck of John Miller coaster, so what currently exists has to be preserved before rides of that kind are reduced to nothing more than photographs.
I don't argue that amusement parks are businesses, but there are people that are willing to look at these parks- and certain aspects of them- as more than just revenue-generating machines. When people are passionate about something, they tend to see things in a different light, and that is why some people are willing to look beyond "reality" and to the concept of preservation (getting back to your original question.)
"...but really, what can you do about the inevitable forces of time and change?"
You're right, Jeff. In many - perhaps even most - cases there isn't anything anyone can do, no matter how hard they try. Sad fact, but true.
But where's the harm in trying anyway? If a person, a club, or a company only saves one out of every 10 endangered coasters or parks that is STILL one less park or ride that isn't lost.
History is filled with people who, even though they were told they couldn't make a difference, listened to their hearts and succeeded against all odds; succeeded even when people said it couldn't be done. It's that hope that fuels people like Jon, Rob, DAFE, ACE, NAPHA, and many, many others to continue try to make a difference even when they fail.
If no one tried nothing would ever be accomplished. I believe that someday I can make a difference. Even though I know the odds are stacked against me it won't keep me from trying. And conversely if a person doesn't want to try to make a difference that's their prerogative.
True, but Conneaut was also severly mismanaged by people who didn't feel that decision had to be made. Under different circumstances, i.e. different management, Conneaut may very well be a much differnet park with a signature newer woodie. The current management is trying to turn the park around and make it profitable...who's to say that new "gee-whiz" ride still won't happen?
Well, I can tell you it absolutely won't happen if people don't visit the park.
I'm not a CEO or anything but I do have a firm grasp on how business works. I understand that amusement parks, just like any kind of company you can think of, become victims of their environment. Competition, changing customer tastes, money and the overall passing of time all factor into whether or not a business succeeds. Obviously, it is naive to think that all traditional parks are going to exist inside of a bubble where they are immune to all of those things.
However, the traditional amusement park, and the wood coaster that usually goes along with it, is an endangered species. If you have ever seen a copy of Roller Coaster Fever, you can see that the number of small, traditional amusement parks is much higher than the number of theme parks (this is going back to '79.) Take a look at ACE's Guide to Ride 2000 and you'll see a complete reversal of fortune for the traditional amusement park.
Its a sign of the times, of course. Theme parks supplanted traditional parks. That's life, and there isn't anything that can be done. But, to all of you that have been debating the point I have been trying to make: As coaster enthusiasts, doesn't it bother you at all that the number of traditional parks and old wood coasters is on a continual decline? If you were someone that preferred to use Macintosh computers over PCs and you were told that Macs would no longer be made or supported, wouldn't you worry? If your favorite beer were Corona but that was no longer going to be imported to this country, wouldn't you be bothered? Why is it so hard for some people to look beyond logic and understand that there is emotion behind the actions of some people when it comes to certain things?
As an individual, I stand very little chance of doing anything about the loss of an old park or an old coaster. But when I find that fifty people think just like me and want to accomplish the same thing that I hope to accomplish, then we suddenly stand more of a chance as a group. We may fail at what we do and only save one park or one coaster out of ten, but losing nine is a lot better than losing ten.
The Wood Coaster Fan Club (whose first newsletter I am staring at as I type this) is a group of people who don't consider "doing nothing" as an option. Its a group of people that are willing to make the effort to go against the odds and do something that many people are saying cannot be done. Take a look around you... your world is filled with things that were accomplished by people that were told to just give up.
With a lot of work and a lot of support, Conneaut can flourish once again. There is nothing to say that a properly-run park in that area wouldn't be a profitable endeavor.
Even after the first few SRMs, when Raven was being raved about, my opinion was, "Why should I travel half way across the U.S. for a park with one small woodie?"
And then one year some friends were going to SRM and asked me to come, so I did...but only because we were also going to visit PKI, SFKK, and SFStL, parks which I felt that, as a tourist, the value proposition would be high enough to justify visiting.
Holiday World opened my eyes to what small, traditional parks are all about. I then decided that maybe I shouldn't skip them and I started visiting places like Compounce, Indiana Beach, Knoebels, Rye Playland, and the Jersey Shore. And I'm so glad I did.
YMMV.
People think I'm anti-theme park, but I'm not. Not by a long shot. Some of my favorite parks are those with the words "Disney", "Universal" and "Sea World" and "Busch" in the title. I'm a big fan of high-tech, high-themed rides and those places definitely interest me. However, for a classic wood coaster, you have to go to Lake Compounce, Knoebels and Kennywood. They have their place in this world just as theme parks do, and why should theme parks get all the support when traditional parks should get it, too?
Also keep in mind... traditional parks are often located in out-of-the-way places that can't support theme parks. Drop a park like Knoebels in the middle of a major population center like northern NJ or outside of L.A. and see the support it gets.
Having hopes and dreams isn't a problem, I'd encourage it, all the more power to you if you believe in a cause, but I just think it's one that you're in for way more disappointment than glory because you're going against the general trends of the economy, business, and the general public, and those are three very large, very strong, and very influencial forces that are all working against you.
You say that Conneaut could survive and flourish with a little bit of work, but with Cedar Point, Geauga Lake, Kennywood, SFDL, and arguably Hershey and PKI all within it's "target market" not to mention Waldameer and the various other little parks in that area, does anyone really WANT it to survive (outside of your group and those who went there as a kid)?
And to the point of Kennywood, honestly, I only think that Kennywood has retained it's "traditional" feel because #1 West Mifflin is reluctant to let it expand, #2 the funds don't come in fast enough to allow mega-expansion, and #3 the time it could have started growing directly coincided with the growth of Hershey and Cedar Point, putting the squeeze on Kennywood if they tried to go big time. Kennywood survives because instead of drawing off of a smaller town such as Youngstown or Erie, it draws off Pittsburgh (obviously) and Pittsburghers are VERY reluctant to change. So, the chances of a Pittsburgher getting in the car to go to Hershey or Geauga Lake when Kennywood's right next door are slim because "that's the way it's always been". If it had gotten a little more "jump" on the industry, I think Kennywood could have easily become a SFGAm or PKI that was a "city park" that has now become a "regional park".
Charles Nungester said:
Wow, seems to me to be a bunch of cup half empty instead of cup half full emotions.
See, I'm an optomistic person, but I'm also a realist, and the reality is whether the cup is half full or half empty means that eventually it will be totally empty and need refilled with something new.
If a business is 'empty', the logical thing would be to put something new in the glass. I hate that smaller parks don't always do well. I was staying less than 5 miles from Whaleom park for over a week 2 times, and never got to go because we didn't have time while visiting family("Maybe next trip", and then my sister and her family moved:(). Oh how I wish I would have went.
But apparently, the business didn't justify it being open.
Yes, I think its great when parks pick up rides from out of business parks, esp. rollercoasters. Yes, I think its great when a park gets saved, but that rarely happens if the park dosen't do well.
There are exceptions when the right mgt. comes along. But then there are parks like Kennywood that realize that, though they want to stay traditional(and this is good and works for them well), you must add stuff that people want.
Ask a general kid or young person if they would rather go to Six Flags or a small park. They're gonna say Six Flags because they're not enthusiasts, they just want to ride and have fun, and they don't have a passion for the rides. Its just the newest thing and thats cool.
Such is the way of life.
Going against current trends? I believe that is what a "movement" is. If traditional parks and wood coasters were the current trend, then we wouldn't be complaining, now would we? We know that there are forces working against us. We're prepared to deal with them. We're also prepared to deal with failure and disappointment. But its okay. We believe in what we're doing. This isn't about glory. This is about preserving what WE enjoy.
Conneaut could EASILY flourish in its current market. How many movie theaters exist within a 20-mile radius of you? Malls? Wal-Marts and Targets? Pizza parlors? Competition is a big deal, but if you're doing something right and the guy down the street is doing something right, chances are there is room for both of you. Many parks do not consider other parks their primary competition. They consider their competition to be other forms of entertainment. That's a fact... again, not just outsider speculation.
Kennywood is what it is because that is what works. How do you think that they have survived all these years? Talk to anyone at the park and they'll tell you the importance of their classic wood coasters or how special Noah's Ark is. They play their traditional cards because that's the hand they always win with. If Kennywood were to cut down their trees, remove their landscaping and old buildings and build a bunch of rides just like the ones a Geauga Lake, what do you think would happen? I'd bet my life savings that the park would tank and eventually close down because it wouldn't be Kennywood anymore. Hersheypark was once a small traditional park with very little land and no modern rides. They modernized and expanded, but they did so while retaining the traditional feel of the old park. Why do you think that people LOVE Hershey but tolerate Dorney, which is a traditional park that lost everything that made it what it was? Dorney surives, Hershey thrives.
For example, why would Jon want to start his own club instead of contributing to ACE preservation efforts? (And let's not get into a debate about the organizational shortcomings of ACE, because I know a lot of people have strong opinions on that.) I mean, there's a group that has access to the roughly 8,000 people who likely would care the most. Heck, some of them might even be celebrities or company presidents.
My original point is that when bad things happen, the first thing out of everyone's mouth is, "We should try to save it." Again, good intentions aren't long-term business plans. Without that, you can't sustain these rides. It's not any more complicated than that. Come up with the right cause, and if I have something left after breast cancer charities and the Red Cross, I'll gladly help out.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Theres nothing wrong with visiting big parks and having several coasters to choose from. I do find that at some of those parks waiting in lines OR being charged to bypass lines is taking away from my enjoymen.
I don't go to parks looking for problems although I may come across some on my visits. I also don't visit any park because it has 50 coasters. I visit to have fun! And having fun can be one coaster and a couple flatrides or 50 coasters and a ton of flatrides.
If I wasn't having fun or seeking fun I wouldn't visit any of them. As it stands I have generally had much more fun at small parks. So much so that I plan my trips around them to include a big park or two.
Last year was Idlewild (Had a complete ball and did everything we wanted in 5hrs and could have easily stayed longer)
Dutch Wonderland and Williams Grove in the same day. (Granted Dutch was mainly for children but we had a blast and despite being almost a dump of a park we were having a true ball at Williams Grove with its one rougher than crap coaster a anton and a couple darkrides)
Hershey (I believe the main key to us enjoying it as much as we did was it was dead) Lightning Racer was the only true star ride. everything else was good.
Knoebels, (On my second visit here I had just as much if not more fun than I did the first time or at any other park)
Lakemont and Delgrosos (While Delgrosos was purely to get my Zyclon ride It will be neat to see that park expand. Lakemont can be pure fun if you can enjoy yourself. Thinks like the Octupus that is insane, LTD and a reborn Skyliner are just plain enjoyable) Bring a picnic basket and do what you want, when you want and how many times you want to do em.
SFWOA, I had a ball there last year and caught a couple animal shows to boot.
This years trip will be in mid June consisting of Conneaut, Waldameer, Geneva on the lake, Erieview. SFDL, Martins Fantasy Island, Marine Land PCW, Seabreeze and Kennywood
Chuck, just betting he can enjoy all of them unless something they do interferes with it like calling someone a MF for giving them a hundred dollar bill for their $40 addmission. (CP 1994)
TeknoScorpion said:
Ask a general kid or young person if they would rather go to Six Flags or a small park. They're gonna say Six Flags because they're not enthusiasts, they just want to ride and have fun, and they don't have a passion for the rides. Its just the newest thing and thats cool.Such is the way of life.
But kids hardly make up the kind of crowd that keeps a park afloat. Just ask Six Flags.
Besides, Six Flags is no role model for success. I'd say the majority of traditional parks are in better financial shape than they are.
Of course we would care... but the willingness to accept business and feasibility aspects of the situation are where being a realist influences our feelings on the matter. I think that's what Brett is getting at.
Rob Ascough said:
You mention not being worried about the decline of traditional parks, but if a decline had brought down two of the parks that you frequent, maybe you would care.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Jeff said:
And let's not get into a debate about the organizational shortcomings of ACE, because I know a lot of people have strong opinions on that.
If you're worried about getting into a debate about that, does that imply that you think there is something to debate? *** Edited 4/16/2004 7:05:22 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Chuck
Jeff said:
Come up with the right cause, and if I have something left after breast cancer charities and the Red Cross, I'll gladly help out.
Way back when someone first mentioned the idea of breast cancer research, don't you think that someone stood up and said that was a useless fight? It took someone, or some group, to believe that something could get done.
I'm not comparing breast cancer to the closing of an amusement park, but the concept of believing in a cause is basically the same.
And I just want to set it straight that I don't think it's not worth fighting, I just don't like it when people come on here and whine and complain that everyone else isn't behind them when they've taken up one heck of a tough cause to fight for!
And your competition thing is right as far as malls and pizza places go (I think Coraopolis has the most pizza shops per person in the country - right Gonch?) but we're talking about amusement parks trying to attract people for maybe 2 or 3 weekends out of a summer, IF that (for most GPs). So the demand is infinitely less, people will always want pizza and new clothes, but they're not going to make 7 trips to amusement parks in a summer instead of buying those new clothes just because there happen to be 7 different parks around them. They'll pick their favorite two (which will be the ones with the most and biggest rides - most percieved value for their dollar) and go there maybe once each. That's what I was getting at there.
Hey, this is a great discussion and I look forward to reading what I miss when I get home, but I'm out of here to go ski and hopefully ride my first Maurer Sohne and Mondial Top Scan!
*throws in final two cents*
I realize you were not saying that, I was just using your words to springboard my comments. I should have made that more clear.
"Again, good intentions aren't long-term business plans. Without that, you can't sustain these rides. It's not any more complicated than that."
I absolutely agree with you.
mOOSH
You must be logged in to post
