New coaster at Canada's wonderland. Why?

As potentially true as wait line guestimates may be (for the record, the "mouse" and "boomerang" coasters at Wonderland often have 45 minute waits, as do all of the other coasters generally (30-50 minutes once 1 oclock rolls around), I'm not sure that's necessarily a deciding factor to parks. The fact that Millenium Force 100 has a small wait time is a benefit, because it means not all of the rides have long waits.

I think Jeff's point about actual capacity, vs. perceived wait time, is a more important measure for park management.

Wait times are still irrelevant to describe how popular a ride is. It still gives a fixed number of rides per hour. It only describes how popular waiting in line is.

Magnum is a perfect example of that. It's wait is usually pretty short. Yet it's always near the top of the list for number of rides.

jonnytips said:
I think Jeff's point about actual capacity, vs. perceived wait time, is a more important measure for park management.

Hmmm...here's a quote from Jeff on September 4th, 2008 that I just ran across:

"The capacity is not as important as how long people are standing in line."

So, Jeff and I were on the same page in September 2008. I'm not sure why he'd take an opposite stance now.

To me, the most intelligent business is going to try to gather a large collection of unique rides, such that people will want to experience them all and stay in the park as long as possible. This way, wait times are more equally proportioned and reduced on rides where demand exceeds supply (I'm sorry for saying more popular, but I thought you all knew what I meant).

So, what I'm saying is that Canada's Wonderland is risking that guests may axe Behemoth from their ride list at some point in favor of Leviathan. Then, they really didn't solve a problem efficiently. Certain guests are staying in the park a shorter period of time than if they had chosen a more unique ride. Additionally, the long wait is passed onto Leviathan, which will still draw guest complaints of long waits.

I would think he meant people should be in line as short of a time as possible, not the other way around. Other than the occasional vending machine, people can't really spend money while they are standing in line.

So, what I'm saying is that Canada's Wonderland is risking that guests may axe Behemoth from their ride list at some point in favor of Leviathan.

What?

Think about what you just said and honestly tell me that you actually believe it. It makes absolutely no sense. No guest would ever go "oh, yea, I'm definitely not riding this awesome ride (Behemoth) anymore because now there's this other one that is also awesome (Leviathan)." By that logic, people would've stopped riding Magnum when MF got built. And they didn't. Heck, if people are going to stop riding Behemoth when Leviathan gets built, why didn't they stop riding Back Lot Stunt Coaster when it was supplanted by the newer, bigger, better Behemoth? The rides being 'similar' means nothing to how good the public thinks they are.

Behemoth and Leviathan are still going to be the two best coasters in the park by a long shot. Each (especially Behemoth), will have wonderful guest throughput, both from a stand-alone and a compared-to-the-rest-of-Wonderland's-rides perspective. Assuming consistent operations, if the lines don't get shorter, it's because there are more people at the park. And that, not shorter lines, is the ultimate goal.

Jeph said:

Hmmm...here's a quote from Jeff on September 4th, 2008 that I just ran across:

"The capacity is not as important as how long people are standing in line."

You'd make a good politician, quoting someone without including context.

And yeah, what BBSpeed said. Here's my thing: if I try my damnedest to step back and think like a non-enthusiast (not at all difficult for me to do), I picture myself entering a new-to-me park like Wonderland, looking around and thinking, "Wow, this place has two absolutely gigantic coasters. When can we ride them?" It's not about one or the other. I wouldn't care if Leviathan's layout were even more similar to Behemoth.

Vater said:
It's not about one or the other. I wouldn't care if Leviathan's layout were even more similar to Behemoth.

Nobody does.

And if this was something unique and different, the other half would be crawling out to make their capacity complaints.

What Vater said. What kind of BS context-free nonsense is that? To me as an individual, of course the time I spend in line matters more than capacity. It doesn't change the fact that a ride's capacity is static. Nice try. Can't believe you're wasting time looking for things I said years ago.

Lord Gonchar said:

And if this was something unique and different, the other half would be crawling out to make their capacity complaints.

That would include me. Just know that I am complimenting the park on building another high-capacity ride, and because of that, I don't give a fart how similar it is to their other new coaster. I guess one could say that capacity is my number one issue. :)

Jason Hammond said:
I would think he meant people should be in line as short of a time as possible, not the other way around. Other than the occasional vending machine, people can't really spend money while they are standing in line.

That's exactly what he meant. That's also exactly what I've been arguing. You think I've been arguing that people should be in line longer? Very confused...

BBSpeed26 said:

So, what I'm saying is that Canada's Wonderland is risking that guests may axe Behemoth from their ride list at some point in favor of Leviathan.

What?

Think about what you just said and honestly tell me that you actually believe it. It makes absolutely no sense. No guest would ever go "oh, yea, I'm definitely not riding this awesome ride (Behemoth) anymore because now there's this other one that is also awesome (Leviathan)." By that logic, people would've stopped riding Magnum when MF got built. And they didn't.

Did you not just read my previous posts? There are plenty of people that have stopped riding Magnum since Millenium Force was built. Just because you still appreciate Magnum thoroughly as I do does not mean that other people from the general public make sure to ride it every trip.

I have not waited in the turnstiles for Magnum in the last 5+ years at Cedar Point. Last time I rode Magnum, there were 2 other people in the entire train (this was at about 7PM when the park closed at 10PM). There was not 1 person in the station after us. I snapped a picture if people don't believe me.

Most of these visits, Millenium, TTD, and Maverick had about equal waits, ranging from 15 minutes to an hour.

Again, what I'm saying is that there is risk that Leviathan has a long line in the future, and Behemoth's line shrinks drastically as a result of it. If this happens, it is not an ideal situation imo. You or I don't know for certain what will happen, but I guess we'll see in 5 or 10 years, right?

I really don't care to repeat myself anymore on the subject. It's my opinion that a more unique coaster (for the park) would have been a safer investment for the company.

How many years was MF built after Magnum was built? If Magnum is sporting a smaller line, it is because it is decades older than MF, imho.

On the other hand, The 300 foot tall B&M that is going up at CW is just a few years newer than the 200 footer. They are both new rides, as far as the public is concerned. Cedar Points Magnum is not a newer ride.

Did everyone stop riding Raven when Holiday World built Legend? Did everyone stop riding Legend when they built Voyage?

What about when Son of Beast was built. When that ride was open, Beast was still very popular (and still is, for some reason).

Did everyone stop riding Blue Streak when Mean Streak was built? Nope.

What about Talon when Hydra opened? Nope.

What about X2. Is that line any shorter now that Green Lantern is open? (I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but I can make an educated guess and say... Nope!)

Shall I bore everyone with more examples? Nope.

Jeff said:
What Vater said. What kind of BS context-free nonsense is that? To me as an individual, of course the time I spend in line matters more than capacity. It doesn't change the fact that a ride's capacity is static. Nice try. Can't believe you're wasting time looking for things I said years ago.

First off, I spent zero time looking through quotes, and it's funny that you'd think I'd care that much. To be perfectly honest, I had done a search for ride capacities, and staring in front of my face was that quote from you. It was too perfect of a coincidence to pass up when you were just arguing that capacity is all that matters. Here's Jeff's full quote, so I'm not accused of being a twisting politician (lol!):

"The capacity is not as important as how long people are standing in
line. With the exception of the busiest few weekends, I can't say that
I ever spend a lot of time in line [at Cedar Point]. I don't know if I'm typical
or not, but I sure seem to notice standing in line more at virtually
any other park. I mean, even Maverick has never been longer than an
hour for me. If the line was longer, I didn't get in it!"

This was Jeff's response to RideMan, who was pointing out how important capacity is of roller coasters.

Nothing was taken out of context. "Nice try."

It's very funny that you accuse me of trying to argue with you though, Jeff. Look at all your posts. You weren't even trying to respond to my overall opinion. You were picking apart my use of the word "popular," etc. when you very well knew what I meant. And never did I argue about static capacity or anything of the sort...only you created these arguments.

I very well know that if a line is 5 minutes or 5 hours, the capacity does not change. It's not my point. My point is trying to pick attractions that are unique and will stay equally popular into the future, so that wait times are reduced across the board, and people stay longer in the park, wanting to experience them all.

If you're trying to say my opinion is completely invalid and that only capacity matters, then go build your amusement park with 10 B&M hypers of various heights. It'll certainly be a park with excellent capacity, but I have a hunch that my park will be more successful, with its thoughtful mix of 10 different roller coaster breeds that are all must-rides.

LostKause said:
How many years was MF built after Magnum was built? If Magnum is sporting a smaller line, it is because it is decades older than MF, imho.

Millenium was built 11 years after Magnum. I already mentioned that age could be factor. But, it's worth pointing out that Raptor is 13 years older than Maverick, yet they still have similar waits on busy days. So I do think variety has something to do with it.

And you really don't have an example on the level of Leviathan/Behemoth. Magnum/Millenium is not even an example on that level. Instead of Talon/Hydra, you'd need like Hydra and Hydra 250 or something.

Anyway, I think my over-explanations / examples have gotten my opinion stretched in ways I did not intend.

I feel Canada's Wonderland should have taken this $28 million and expanded their coaster collection with a new breed (or installed an entirely new attraction like a dark ride), especially this soon after Behemoth. Others disagree, and that's just fine. Only time will tell if it was the right decision.

My gawd do you have to keep posting new thoughts? Please just edit and add to a previous post in the future instead of posting 100 times. That's more annoying than this entire discussion about a ride no one has even been on yet.

Jeph said:

LostKause said:
How many years was MF built after Magnum was built? If Magnum is sporting a smaller line, it is because it is decades older than MF, imho.

Millenium was built 11 years after Magnum. I already mentioned that age could be factor. But, it's worth pointing out that Raptor is 13 years older than Maverick, yet they still have similar waits on busy days. So I do think variety has something to do with it.

Actually, the line length at CP (and other parks) is also largely related to general crowd movement through the park. Raptor only has a long line up until about mid day, when it generally goes down to a half hour or less, and then continues to dwindle the rest of the day. Meanwhile, the lines for Mantis, ID, Magnum, etc. continue to lengthen until about 2 or 3 as the majority of the crowd works its way back through the park. Again, the lines begin to recede after a few hours. Rinse and repeat for the back of the park, although at a lesser % as by that time, the general mass crowd movement has begun to largely split up. By and large, the wait times at CP are heavily influenced by the layout of the park, with the exception of Maverick, TTD, and MF.

Did you not just read my previous posts?

I can't see why I should.

+1

Jeph said:
Nothing was taken out of context. "Nice try."

If I "debated" like you, this is where I'd say something like, "Did you even read my posts," since you're not even arguing the same thing. Perhaps you should hang out and read more before posting this frequently.

Jeph said:

I feel Canada's Wonderland should have taken this $28 million and expanded their coaster collection with a new breed (or installed an entirely new attraction like a dark ride), especially this soon after Behemoth. Others disagree, and that's just fine. Only time will tell if it was the right decision.

I totally respect and can almost agree with some of that, but that is not what they are doing. We are not a part of the group of people who get to decide what's new at any of these parks next year, and I have a feeling that they did some looking into it before making this decision. No one spends millions of dollars on something without figuring out if it is a good idea or not first. In other words, we should accept their decision and be happy, because we don't have the same information that they have as far as making these decisions.

Don't take anyone disagreeing with you personally, Jeph. We are all here to discuss our favorite hobby, and many of us don't see eye to eye on a lot of subjects. I, for one, see where you are coming from, and may have had some of the same opinions like yours in the past, but not this time.