Maverick Intamins answer to a Dive Machine?

Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:34 AM
I know its late and I am restless but I got to thinking. Is Maverick Cedar Points and Intamins answer to the B&M's Dive coaster?

Supposively there is some contract with Busch Gardens and B&M about B&M not building another Diving Coaster within "X" miles of a Busch Gardens park within "X" number of years. My question is, or my thought is did Cedar Point look to build one of these diving coaster but was refused by B&M and therefore they turned to Intamin to build a roller coaser in retaliation with a 105 degree drop to take the record here in the U.S. for the degree of the drop?

I know that we will never know, and that any answer will just be pure thought but I wanted to see what others think.

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:26 AM
Short answer: No.

Long answer: No... totally different concepts at work here. I know rumors of exclusivity contracts for B&M dive machines have roamed the internet for years, but in general, it's bad business to turn down someone's money for your product if they want it. Especially since Cedar Point isn't near any Busch parks, nor does it compete directly with them. B&M can only gain from not limiting the availability of their products.

Aside from that issue, though, you still have to look at Maverick as more than one steep drop. Oblivion and G5 are one-trick ponies; Sheikra and Griffon have a few more tricks up their sleeves. But Maverick has so much more... launches, airtime hills, tunnels, sidewinding turns, corkscrews, an inline twist. I don't think Maverick is a response to anything other than the fact that Cedar Point hadn't built a small-to-midsize ride since Iron Dragon. Clearly, the goal was to be creative and attempt something new rather than copy a ride in Florida.

(And besides, Cedar Point already has two rides with 90-degree drops. Sheikra and Griffon didn't take any "records" away from them.)

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:12 AM
I'd say it's Intamin's answer to what CP asked for. ;)
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Sunday, February 11, 2007 7:43 AM

Olsor said:
B&M can only gain from not limiting the availability of their products.


Although the word is that some companies, like the Skycoaster folks, are actually very strict about this sort of thing.

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:58 AM
Supposively? :)

By the way, Mystery Mine will have a 97 Degree Drop, so Maverick is not taking any records there. *** Edited 2/11/2007 4:00:36 PM UTC by Jason Hammond***

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:06 AM
I wouldn't doubt it if some companies did have exclusivity contracts. But I don't think it would make sense for B&M to be one of those companies. A contract like that would do more for the park than it would do for the company (unless, of course, the park is promising future business to the company).

For example, the in-house company that made the "water coasters" at Schlitterbahn, NBGS, makes water coasters for other water parks. They had a unique product that enhanced the draw for their own park, but they didn't limit themselves to only making rides for Schlitterbahn. They could have, but it would've limited their business. Now they're a global company. When B&M's are built globally, it wouldn't make sense to limit that business regionally.

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:56 PM
If Busch had any sort of contract with B&M it would probably be B&M won't build a dive machine at another park for X number of years BUT Busch HAS to build X number of dive machines in that time period. So it could be a good thing for B&M because what if nobody else wanted a dive coaster? This way they at least get to build 2 coasters instead of possibly zero. And of course the other side to that is what if 5 other parks wanted to build dive machines, then that would be limiting their product.
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Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:35 PM
I'm sure if such a deal like this exists between Busch and B&M, B&M wouldn't do it without some benefit to them. It's not like Busch said "Oh hey, and you can't build any of these" wherever for however many years and B&M said "Ok, whatevs."

I know if I were B&M I'd do some math figuring how many dive coasters I could reatlistically build in that particular market and tack on my profit onto Busch's bill. Busch gets an exclusive product and I get paid more.

The only reason I'm skeptical is unless dive coasters are also coming to the Sea World parks (maybe, kinda doubt it) I'm not sure where Busch's competition would be. Tampa is mainly competing with Orlando, where Sea World is a non-issue obviously, Disney is a non-issue as far as coasters go, and Universal could potentially build a dive coaster but if announced tomorrow would probably take a very long time to complete given no construction has been sighted, and a dive coaster at IOA or the studios would probably be a massive undertaking.

Near Williamsburg you have an SF park (I'll eat my shoe if Shapiro builds a B&M of any kind at SFA any time soon), and two newly owned Cedar Fair properties. I could see some vague potential for Carowinds or KD to build a dive machine but I wouldn't say it's likely, and even if it were likely BGW is more of a destination park and serves a pretty different niche than either CF parks nearby.

I'm just not sure how much of a benefit Busch would get from freezing-out other dive machines unless they didn't have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it happen. In other words I hope they didn't pay a bunch if indeed they make that sort of deal.

Boring Sunday, sorry.

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:18 PM
Yeah, B&M wouldn't want to shut out any customer. Let's face it: SF isn't building big, and CF... doesn't have to right now... CF can (and will) take it's good old dolling out big coasters to any park that doesn't have the words "Cedar Point" in the title. I am 99% sure of that.

Now, back on the Intamin topic. I don't really see the Dive Machine as a big threat to Intamin. The company usually isn't as reactive: how many pipeline/non-impulse inverted/floorless/flying coasters did they build? Not many, if any.

Really, I don't think anyone at B&M and Intamin are loosing sleep over each other's designs. Now Vekoma...

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:28 PM
Actually unlike the B&M dive coasters, the first thing that comes to mind with that ride is not its steep first drop. That is just one of the elements on the ride, on a ride that has a midride launch, a few inversion, etc. The ride is more about the low to the ground turns, launch and other cool elements. I think Cedar Point wanted to go a different route and not build anything that breaks any records, and just build what they feel will have a great ride experience.

I think this ride will have a completely different feel and appeal then a B&M dive coaster. Not that Sheikra or Griffon are not world class, but this coaster will not feel like Intamins version of a dive coaster at all. B&M dive coasters hold you before the big vertical drop, giving anticipation for the big element of the ride. Sheikra and Griffon both have 2 vertical drops, so clearly that is the key elements in the ride. Really the drop on Maverick is not that much steeper than other Intamin hypers, such as Superman Ride of Steel or Millenium Force. I doubt that the first drop will be what people will be talking about after they ride Maverick, it just seems the ride has other elements that will be more memorable.

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:39 PM
Matt, I'll eat my shoe as well if SF builds a B&M anytime soon - and you bring up an excellent point.

With B&M were out of the picture for SF, and Intamin having Maverick which should be one hell of an extreme ride and Furious Baco - I think Intamin's future is looking much brighter (at this moment) compared to B&M.

Not sure SF will be buying Intamin either but Intamin certainly appears to have some exciting products compared to B&M (bit stale, and everyone already has an inverted).

My $.02

Tom

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:56 PM
B&M also makes floorless.
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Sunday, February 11, 2007 6:26 PM
"Hoek", would you care to comment? ;)

*** Edited 2/11/2007 11:26:38 PM UTC by ApolloAndy***

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 6:52 PM
I completely disagree with the viewpoint that Intamin's taking over. If they go five years without a glaring safety issue, maybe. A couple nice coasters at big name parks doesn't take away the installations of Patriot, two Goliaths, Silver Bullet, SheiKra, the Chinese flier, Griffon, Tatsu, and so on in the last few years. And I'm not sold at all on Intamins taking B&M's spot at SF parks; witness the problems with Kingda Ka and the SROS restraints. Beemers AFAIK have never had any sort of problems on the level of those two in the 18 years they've made rides under that name, they're the picture of consistency and reliability. The kind of ride you build a park around.
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Sunday, February 11, 2007 7:04 PM
Why is SF done with B&M? Because that's all they've built for the past however many years?
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Sunday, February 11, 2007 7:09 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to imply in any way that Intamin is taking over. My point was more that Intamin continues to inovate while B&M doesn't really have anything new or inovative except dive machines and flyers (which are as unreliable as any Intamin - at least at SFGA). Most parks (again imo) have an inverted and looper, while few have drops over 90 degrees and certainly don't have a ride like "X" or Furious Baco. Given the cost of a B&M, I certainly hope we see something new from B&M shortly, because reliability and safety are easy to solve for. Furthermore, if Intamin had "a glaring safety issue" I strongly suspect TTD and MF would have OTSR and Maverick wouldn't even be under construction at CP.

Tom

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 7:29 PM
I really do not see how Intamin continues to innovate more than anyone else. Intamin has their Accelerator Coasters like Top Thrill Dragster, but the first one of those was in 2002, and while they have gotten bigger, I really do not see where they have been more innovative. What else have they created since then?

And I know many who think that Intamins are FAR more unreliable than B&M flyers or dive machines. I have been to many parks with coasters (over 40 so far in the last 2 years) and it is almost always the Intamins that are down...) If the B&M are down a lot at SFGA, I think that is more of a Six Flags maintenance issue.

Just my two cents...

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 9:18 PM
The reason the B&M's are more reliable than the intamins is B&M user the more tried anf true technology. Everything intamin does they are using something new. The magnetic brakes, the hydrolic lapbars, hydrolic launch, LSM. B&M still uses friction brakes and station based systems to unlock there trains.
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Sunday, February 11, 2007 9:30 PM
My god, reliability has nothing to do with my original post. My point all along has been that at this point, every park on the planet that can afford an inverted coaster has one. Most if not all have at least one sit down looper. B&M has their "floorless", while Intamin is launching Furious Baco. B&M has a dive machine, and Intamin is now going over 90 degrees with Mavrick.

Matt mentioned that B&M's market may be shrinking (loosing SF), and I was just complimenting that point with Intamin positioning themselves well for future growth. Reliability and safety aside.

Tom

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Monday, February 12, 2007 4:28 AM
@TSC 2007:

B&M are using magnetic brakes on most of their new coasters since 2002 (Silverstar being the first). Anyway, magnetic brakes are far more reliable than friction brakes, since most of them have no moving parts.

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