I Survived a Chinese Motion Simulator is a legit shirt. I survived Loch Ness Monster... not so much.
This is why you're one of my favorite people around here.
Some people's religious perspective of homosexuality has really done a lot to damage to both religion and homosexuals. I still suffer from the crap the Christian religion has put into my head about the subject all my life. Do I turn my back on the religion, or do I try to find space for both my religious beliefs and who I am as a person? I don't expect anyone to answer that, because it's different for everyone in that position.
We had a tragic coal mine explosion here in the State not long ago, I'm sure you've heard. Who should show up to the gathering but Westboro Baptist Church crazies (You know, the God hate F??s group from Kansas?). They got some news time, but the great thing about it was that they were portrayed very negatively by the media. I was proud of what almost everyone was saying about these guys, on the news, and in the newspapers. "How dare they use a tragedy like this to further their message of hate", was the general vibe throughout their visit to our State.
When I lived in PA, I very freely told anyone about my gayness whenever the subject came up. Here in rural WV, there are just a few bigots ruining it for all of us. I think that a lot of rural areas have this problem.
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The thing is, you'd never have a pride parade in Travis' neighborhood in WV, where the "message" is in dire need of being passed along.
I don't know about Travis' particular neighborhood in WV, but any other area in WV that I've lived in that had some type of pride event, it was just as Moosh stated. Heck, I was in Charleston, WV for a weekend attending something else and it was Gay Pride weekend, and it was just like that.
Smaller areas in WV are really very different, though. I lived in the smallest, poorest area of the state, but no one really cared. There were quite a few out and openly gay couples, male and female, and they were professionals, very active in the community. They didn't have any type of gay pride events there, but mostly because they were all to busy with real life.
Then, in a more affluent but still backwater area up north, it was very different. Rich farmers and chicken house owners, and there were some obviously gay couples in the area, but they were very low key. They didn't have gay pride events because they would likely be taken out and beaten.
I think regardless of your moral or religious stance on sexuality, if you're encroaching on someone's right to free will, you have some serious issues.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
Great point on the religious trappings of being gay, LK. I abandoned my church when my church told me I wasn't welcome. Not literally, but through its teachings. I have since found my own way to worship, having no desire to ever become part of another organized church.
Maybe I'm the odd one out here because being what I am, I still truly believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, men should act like men and women like women. I do believe in legal partnerships giving the same benefits to gay couples as those enjoyed by a married man and woman. My sister has married another woman, my female cousin has married another woman. Sorry, I don't feel comfortable in my religion acknowledging their union as anything more than a legal partnership.
Call me old fashioned, call me a hater amongst my own, don't really care. My guy and I both feel the same. We work on cars, target shoot, watch b-ball, explore historic places...in other words, most people would never guess. That's the way we like it and probably a more common way of gay thinking than most of you know, since your biggest exposure is through pride.
Pride is so fringe, I can't stand it.
Oh, and Mike, I knew you knew what you had posted. ;)
Well, I suspected you knew I knew. You know. ;)
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I think the issue with religion extends itself to pretty much all things really. The doctrine of organized religion seems to limit thinking and moral reasoning to a dualistic and right/wrong mentality. The problem is that people aren't wired that way.
We're designed to keep evolving our thinking and moral reasoning to higher advanced levels. Those levels move toward the understanding that there are many perspectives out there. The more advanced our way of thinking, the less likely we are to accept a prescribed set of rules as our guide.
It can be hard to reconcile all of that with the rules of religion.
"If passion drives you, let reason hold the reins." --- Benjamin Franklin
Tekno, I live about 30 minutes SW of Charleston, and 30 minutes SW of Huntington. Both cities are very different from where I live, in many different ways. I know of one gay woman, two gay men, one black family, and one Asian lady who live in my area. There was a town hall meeting to discuss the racism problem in our community, and 3 people showed up.
Edit: I should add that I should have went to that meeting. I got a short notice and had other plans. Now I really wish that I would have went.Last edited by LostKause, Sunday, July 11, 2010 6:07 PM
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Times have changed...we've gained a lot of acceptance, especially as the older generations die out, and I feel that Pride events are antiquated. I stopped going. The meaning and message of these events & parades has changed. It used to be a political statement ("We're Here, We're Queer, Get Used to It!"
Gay Pride also feels more about corporate sponsorship than anything these days. "Gay Pride 2010 proudly presented by Starbucks". I find myself most proud when I avoid the pride parade. :) My partner and I tend to avoid gay events because they usually have crazy gay-sploitation pricing. We don't feel any more comfortable around gay people than we do around stright people so don't really get what the point is. Being a rock/metal guy I have my limits with the "douche douche" music that plays endlessly at all things gay. Thankfully the Eagle here tends to play rock so that's sort of our home base bar.
Regarding gay-sploition we went to the Whistler gay ski week a couple of years back with some friends. In addition to the usual skiing there's a bunch of different parties at night. Went to the bear party and there was a $20 cover charge to get in, mandatory $15 coat check, then a bottle of domestic beer was $9. We go to Whistler quite a bit but avoid the cash grab gay event like the plague now.
Pride is so fringe, I can't stand it.
Of all the comments on this topic, I take the most offense to this one. Pride is NOT fringe, it is probably the one and only "idea/concept" or community event (outside of Gay Days at Disney) that brings the tapestry of the entire LGBT community and our allies together. It is probably THE most single important event in the community that shows the world who exactly LGBT people are versus what radical Christian conservatives or the media have pegged us to be. It is the one time we have the ability to say to all the haters and bigots in the world we are here and we are NOT going to go hide back in the closet just to make the uncomfortable comfortable again. More importantly to the statement of it being "fringe," there are just as many conservative and quiet people who partake as those who are liberal and loud about who they are.
In my professional experience in the LGBT community producing events, doing charity work, sitting on a board of directors, etc. I find the ones who are LGBT and complain about things LGBT are usually the ones who still crapple with thoughts of shame about themselves over being LGBT. There is no shame in having Pride no matter how one or a community chooses to express it. The only shame in all of it is one when person puts others down because of his or her own insecurities and issues that go unresolved.Last edited by mlnem4s, Sunday, July 11, 2010 9:31 PM
It is the one time we have the ability to say to all the haters and bigots in the world we are here and we are NOT going to go hide back in the closet just to make the uncomfortable comfortable again.
There's only one time you can do that? That seems kind of dramatic. I think it was 'Moosh who once said, "Every day is gay day when I go to the park."
Perhaps living in the somewhat liberal Seattle area now, which is also one of the most ethnically diverse places I've ever been, I feel like defending the ways we're different is less important.
Sorry you took offense. I may have taken what you typed wrong but look what most people here have responded with. I have NO insecurities about who I am and that is why I can say I don't care if I offended you. Obviously Pride won't say sorry if it offends me.
Half the crap that goes on at Pride events offends me and does more damage to our culture in the public eye than you admit. The Loud and Proud stuff IS fringe, and that is what offends many people in the straight community who see an event. And yeah, as a gay male, its embarrassing to see.
I'm proud of those who go quietly into the world, become stable partners, and join society in a way that advances acceptance of our mostly not-loud culture. Those are the ones, in my eyes, who are doing the most to garner our acceptance into the mainstream community.
Want me to open another can of worms? I also believe in Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
Jeff, instead of taking out a "sound bite" as you did, re-read the part that I said prior to "the one time" that it "brings the tapestry of the ENTIRE LGBT community and our allies together." Yes, it is one specific time that everyone comes together. Lot's of folks don't go to dance parties, lot's of folks do don't drag shows, lot's of folks don't go to bars, lot's of folks don't go to bear or leather or sports or lesbian events.....but all the various diverse groups in the LGBT community come together for Pride as one united entity.
In regards to obxKevin and your follow up post, let me address this part:
"Half the crap that goes on at Pride events offends me and does more damage to our culture in the public eye than you admit. The Loud and Proud stuff IS fringe, and that is what offends many people in the straight community who see an event. And yeah, as a gay male, its embarrassing to see."
So basically you are saying it is shameful for the LGBT community to do outrageous things but it is ok when the str8's do it? I can speak specifically to the years I worked for a MAJOR porn company here in the USA and all the crap I see str8's do like swingers parties and adult conventions and fantasy fest weekends.....but they never get taken to task for that as being immoral/sinners/blasphmous nor are they beaten/robbed/killed over it. Yet somehow the LGBT community embracing our sexuality publicly, as heterosexuals get to do everyday, is a bad thing in your eyes? Maybe you really just have a problem with anything dealing with sexuality? I will NEVER apologize for embracing my sexuality, whether that be quietly in my private life or throwing the most OUTRAGEOUS parties and making money at it just like the heterosexual community does. It's far from being fringe.....it's all mainstream in 2010.Last edited by mlnem4s, Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:56 PM
A tad to the left of the topic at hand, but...
I can speak specifically to the years I worked for a MAJOR porn company here in the USA and all the crap I see str8's do like swingers parties and adult conventions and fantasy fest weekends.....but they never get taken to task for that as being immoral/sinners/blasphmous nor are they beaten/robbed/killed over it.
So you don't think there's any stigma attached to those in the porn industry and/or those that partake in these alternative lifestyle activites?
So basically you are saying it is shameful for the LGBT community to do outrageous things but it is ok when the str8's do it?
He said no such thing. If I had to guess, he might be referring to outright lewd behavior, which is generally not welcome by the public at large regardless of sexual orientation.
It's one thing to say, "Look at me kiss boys, how do you like that?" It's quite another to say, "Just because I kiss boys doesn't make me any less deserving of basic human respect and rights as you."
@ Gonchar, no I don't. Not when Jenna Jameson can have a #1 selling book on the NYTimes list. Not when Vivid Entertainment can seal deals with mainstream businesses. Not when Traci Lords can be offered roles in film and television. Not when the electronics industry specifically holds their Las Vegas convention the same time as the adult industry holds theirs. There is a HUGE acceptance level by mainstream American of heterosexuality on display. I even know for fact that the largest amount of adult entertainment products are sold in the most conservative parts of the United States. People may not talk about it, but these are the realities of the disparity in acceptance or non-acceptance of different sexual orientations.
@Jeff, I think it is exactly what he is saying, I have seen this debate before within the LGBT community. A perfect example: there is wide acceptance of girls flipping up their tops exposing their breasts for beads during the Mardi Gras celebration in New Orleans or drunken men and women urinating in the streets....NOBODY complains or protests that, it is an accepted part of American culture. Or even better, all the shenanigans that go on IN FULL VIEW during the AVN Expo in Las Vegas. At the same time, the Folsom Street Fair in SFO is repeatedly slammed every year by Christian groups and anti-LGBT organizations as blasphemous and an abomination leading America into hell. Some in the LGBT community say this event is a horrible thing only hurting the "acceptance" of LGBT folks. You don't see the hypocrisy in the comparison?????? What goes on in cities during Pride is hardly anywhere near the examples I used, what could possibly be "fringe," offensive and embarassing as obxKevin claims they are?!?!?!
What planet do you live on, man? Girls flashing their breasts is hardly a socially acceptable thing. That there's a porn industry doesn't make it socially acceptable either. What does that have to do with being gay? You're not even making an argument for anything, let alone offering a "perfect example."
Gonch - what I was trying to say earlier, basically, if you aren't a part of that minority group, it's asking for trouble using that slang word (the 'f' word, as we were talking about). Another good example would be using the 'n' word around African American people - not just your friends who are ok with it.
The reason I say something specifically about the f word or saying 'thats gay' is b/c there are many people in the 'closet' and in very bad states of mind due to our society and it being OK for the time being, using those phrases. It's not OK to Matthew Shepards mother, I would think, or to the addicted suicidal closet case who is really struggling.
I in no way meant to imply that you were homophobic - likewise I'm not accusing anyone who uses those words/phrases are. Maybe the point (I'm trying to make) is that when we say those things, it can affect others negatively. I have used the N word, but after careful thought (including talking to African American people about it), it's really not OK for me to use that word.
"My sister has married another woman, my female cousin has married another woman. Sorry, I don't feel comfortable in my religion acknowledging their union as anything more than a legal partnership."
OBXKevin, youll feel completely different if your partner should leave this Earth before you and his family swoops down to try to take EVERYTHING that you and he acquired TOGETHER! Or better one...If he ends up in the hospital taking his last breaths and his family denies you visitation because of your non-union status. You might want to think about not just YOUR relationship, but how certain laws an aspects of societal dictates may affect others around you. Just because you dont agree with the aspect of a civil union and you think people should marry the opposite sex, it doesnt mean their arent heinous consequences to your 1940s ideologies.
And do me one favor everybody...Look up the term "Uncle Tom" and see the horrific correlation between the Civil Rights Movement and the Gay Rights movement.
There is a HUGE acceptance level by mainstream American of heterosexuality on display.
Not sure I believe it's acceptance as much as saturation...and I think it's just a numbers game. There's a lot more heteros than homos.
Not when Jenna Jameson can have a #1 selling book on the NYTimes list. Not when Vivid Entertainment can seal deals with mainstream businesses. Not when Traci Lords can be offered roles in film and television. Not when the electronics industry specifically holds their Las Vegas convention the same time as the adult industry holds theirs.
So no gays have had NYTimes bestsellers, mainstream businesses, roles in film and television or conventions in Las Vegas?
A perfect example: there is wide acceptance of girls flipping up their tops exposing their breasts for beads during the Mardi Gras celebration in New Orleans or drunken men and women urinating in the streets....NOBODY complains or protests that, it is an accepted part of American culture.
Really? :)Last edited by Lord Gonchar, Monday, July 12, 2010 3:03 AM
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