Knoebels announces they are working on a classic!
Nate: Despite your recent claims that you are not being intentionally argumentative or negative toward the Knoebels project, I really get the sense that you are but I really don't feel like going back and re-reading all your posts so I can quote you word for word.
It would be hard find anybody more knowledgeable or passionate about amusement parks than the folks at Knoebels and I don't doubt that the Flying Turns is a "pet project" yet at the same time, they aren't going to risk their business and waste money on something just because "it would be cool to do." I think they care too deeply about their park to try anything like that. But their passion and genuine interest in amusement parks and classic rides is refreshing in today's world of bland branded parks with a line-up of cookie-cutter attractions. Knoebels has the experience and passion to recognize what parts of the industry's past are worthwhile to bring back as well as the knowledge and ability to actually pull it off.
These are exciting times for amusement park enthusiasts!
Yes, I understand that. Yet you ignored the rest of his post that disputed your theory as to why more were not built. Selective quoting, Nate.
For the record I also think its an odd thing for Dick to do, but then that's what I've come to expect from him. That's what makes his park so special ;)
mOOSH
As is Rob, And Jim and Matthew and millrace and anyone else who sees this as a exciting project.
And how is Rob a hypocrite by being a wood coaster fan and fully supporting this project? DUH?????
Just think, it was announced less then a week ago they are planning the Flying Turns. We can have at least 18 more months of why it's a good and a bad idea! :)
My first coaster rides were at Euclid Beach. If I would have beem tall enough to ride the Flying Turns there when I last visited the park, mt screen name might have well been Flyingturnsman. But that was the only coaster at the park I didn't ride before the park closed. I think Euclid Beach had the most popular 'Turns ride of the ones that were built. Everyone I have ever talked to that went to the 'Beach and rode the ride had nothing but praise of the coaster. I'm talking GP not enthusiasts. Family, friends, neighbors, casual accaintances all would say the same thing. Mention Euclid Beach around Clevelanders and you'll hear people start reminiscing about the Flying Turns and what a great wild ride it was. Some will even mention how they miss the ride.
So Nate, give it up already. Your main argument points are moot and baseless. You've never even ridden the ride so don't whine about it being odd or being a poor business decision. Remember that Dick rode the Euclid Beach Flying Turns and loved it like almost everyone else that had been to the park.
Which brings me back to my first comments to you in this thread (that you even quoted). You don't have to understand. You don't have to like it. You don't even have to ride it. The rest of us will enjoy the coaster and appreciate Knoebels for being the true traditional amusment park that it is. Now please move on
They can't get their act together anymore.
It's over, Done.
That's not selective quoting at all. I didn't reply to every single aspect of and every single point made in his post, but why should I have to? Some of it I knew, and some if it was new to me. I simply didn't have anything to say about it. It's not like I purposely just ignored what he said because it was somehow "damaging" to my claim.
A business is a business. "This is what we do because this is what we do" is not a business plan. I don't think it's any more strange for Knoebels to build this than any other park. It may be less expected because it's Knoebels, but probably no less strange.
I didn't mean to imply that Dick would recklessly pursue this ride against all odds, or that he'd risk losing his park over this. I should have been more clear. I do suspect, however, that he's not building this primarily due to financial or market reasons. It seems more personal.
I'm not sure if I would feel differently about this if a wooden coaster manufacturer were producing the ride. I'd still wonder why, I think, if only for reasons of cost. jimvid mentioned that flying turns were significantly more expensive than a regular wooden coaster. I still don't see the advantage of an in-house wood ride as opposed to steel, since it seems cost was not really the issue.
By the way, people keep mentioning Knoebels' track record of reviving older rides and ride concepts. What old, extinct ride concepts has Knoebels revived? Am I missing something? I'm genuinely curious.
He wasn't negative about Hades for six months either. But of course, Im a liar!
Oh, here we go again. I apparently had an evil twin six months before Hades opened who would sneak on here and make negative comments about the ride without me knowing. I'm still waiting for you to come up with some evidence that I bashed Hades for six months. Meanwhile, you just keep spouting off. I've asked you three times now - put up or shut up.
You're like the ADD kid who reads three words and nothing else before replying. The reason I called Rob a hypocrite had NOTHING to do with his support of this project but I only said that in the very next sentence.
Thrillerman, I appreciate the apology. I still think you're totally missing what I'm arguing, however. I'm not whining or saying the ride shouldn't be built. I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy the ride or that it will be stupid. I'm trying to discuss the reasons for taking on such a project (though it's turned into a thread in which I have to defend myself against ten people who assume I'm cursing the ride before it's even built). IF it gets built, I can still enjoy the ride itself while STILL thinking it was an odd decision.
-Nate
*** Edited 10/12/2005 10:52:56 PM UTC by coasterdude318***
Phoenis, Relocated and restored to blueprints.
Looper.
Lusse Scooters, Dodgems run the wya they were ment too.
Working sawmill and Blacksmith shops ect. ect.
Those are examples.
Nate, I don't hate you, I just don't get you.
No, You weren't totally anti Hades but you did critize almost everything the park and TGG did. The Picture example is one of em of the guy standing oposite the oncomming train.
Excuse me for not quoting all the examples (Which I could) but I wouldn't want to be accused of making things look the way I want them to. (Which you do) I'd rather people go back and see for themselves.
Chuck
coasterdude318 said:
I'm not sure if I would feel differently about this if a wooden coaster manufacturer were producing the ride. I'd still wonder why, I think, if only for reasons of cost. jimvid mentioned that flying turns were significantly more expensive than a regular wooden coaster. I still don't see the advantage of an in-house wood ride as opposed to steel, since it seems cost was not really the issue.
Yes, it was more expensive then building a small or midsized wooden coaster in the 30's-50's - I'm not sure how one would determine the cost at this point. Keep in mind the Phoenix was purchased, moved, and rebuilt for just about 1 mil and Twister was done for just about under 2 - the cost effectiveness of building in house is quite obvious with those numbers. While not implausible to build an inhouse steel coaster - Knoebels is all about wood, it's in a grove of trees, they own a lumber yard, they own a 500 acre forest....
By the way, people keep mentioning Knoebels' track record of reviving older rides and ride concepts. What old, extinct ride concepts has Knoebels revived? Am I missing something? I'm genuinely curious.
Herschell Looper (new to the park this year - only one in operation in the world)
Haunted Mansion (created from 2 defunct parks Pretzel rides)
Crazy Dazy (Tea Cups) - the very last PTC cuddle up in a park
2 classic carousels (one with Brass ring mechanism)
Rotojet (1 of 4 left)
Flyers (10 tub model - one of 2 in operation - only 9 other original B.R. Flying Scooters are in operation in the US and they are all 8 tub)
2 vintage train rides (1 steam)
Whip (1 of 7 left)
Lusse Autoskooters (1 of 5 left in the US)
Fascination (1 of 6 left in the US)
Rocket Slide (one of a kind)
Overland coaster aka High Speed Thrill Coaster (one of a kind)
Boat Ride (last of it's kind)
and obviously Pheonix and Twister (and skid brakes)
with the exception of the Boat Ride, HSTC, and Fascination - all of these rides were salvaged from defunct parks, revived and are impeccably maintained to last for many generations to come. The only park I can think of that has close to that many significant historic rides is Rye Playland.
The depression, WWII, and the postwar era basically took their toll on the traditional parks and investments in these types of rides like the others have already said. Television didn't help parks either as more people were more willing to stay at home and be entertained in their living rooms. So there really is a multitude of reasons why there weren't more of these fascinating rides. Bad timing to say the least.
Nate, you said something about not understanding where Knoebels gets this reputatiuon of reviving older rides and ride concepts. WTF???...take those damn horse blinders off next time you're at the park. They saved the Rocket from San Antonio, rebuilt Mister Twister (sort of) from Elitch's. They have a classic dark ride, carrousel with brass ring, three band organs. a live steam train, lusse scooters, whip, looper, and plenty of other older rides that Dick bought or saved from old parks when they closed down. Does the free gate and free parking not say anything to you either?? All examples of *old school* traditional amusement parks. To bring back a true Flying turns ride is following in the footsteps of what he has already done. Saving, or bringing back an original ride concept (as you put it). It's so obvious to everyone but you. If it was a snake, it would've bitten you. The mentality, philosophy, and atmosphere of Knoebels is all there right in front of you dude.
Man this reminds me of the Argument Clinic from Monty Python! Yes it is. No it isn't!! Yes it is!!! Oh I've had enough of this....No you haven't!!!
Chuck,
I said it was unsafe to stand with a ride's safety envelope while it was operating. I still feel that way. That's hardly bashing Hades or TGG. If you feel you can truly quote other examples (other than a valid concern about roughness in the tunnel), I dare you to go for it. If someone is being directly quoted, I fail to see how words are being twisted. Hell, I'd MUCH RATHER people quote me than try to tell me what I said because, as evidenced a thousand times in this thread, people are good at misinterpreting.
-Nate
Not in Nate's defense:
"...people quote me than try to tell me what I said because, as evidenced a thousand times in this thread, people are good at misinterpreting."
No, as evidenced a thousand times you're purposely ambiguous so you can weasel out of it. Question for you, have you ever thought of politics as a career? In all seriousness, I think you would make a great politician because you do have a skill in ambiguity.
(Disclaimer: I mean "great politician" as in he would be successful AS a politician, not necessarily that he would be good for the office and for the people. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be good for the office or for the people either)
I count at least 10 whips in the US alone (Rye, Bushkill, Hersheypark, Dorney, Knoebels, Kennywood, Idlewild, Camden, Lesourdsville Lake, Lakeside) and I can think of 3 crazy dazys (used to be 4 until Stricker's removed theirs :( )
Not nitpicking, I'm just curious about rare rides. :)
Dorney used to have a bunch of traditionals and thats where I think CF has taken the charm from the park. A whip, A paratrooper and a boat ride in the creek come to mind.
As far as Crazy Daisys, I know of at least two others, Adventurland Iowa and Seabreaze.
Of course there are other parks besides Knoebels that has some historic one of a kind or very few left rides. Kennywood, Williams Grove, Lakemont and Conneaut come to mind.
Nate, Just to clarify what I as well as others believe.
Taking portions of a persons post and using only the quotes you choose to respond to, Make it appear that you are twisting what is being said for your purposes. (Not saying that your doing it on purpose) But without everything that was actually said, You can take anything printed and make it seem how you want it too.
Chuck
I don't purposely twist/misconstrue people's words when I reply to them. The TOS specifically says "be sure to trim the parts of the post that do not refer to your response." That's exactly what I do. I take the portion of the post I wish to reply to and quote that. There's really no big conspiracy about it.
-Nate *** Edited 10/13/2005 3:25:34 AM UTC by coasterdude318***
^ as for ride numbers/types.. I think I may be misunderstanding you, but Dorney still has the original whip. The boats and paratrooper were removed, but the Whip still remains in it's non-replaced form. (The Tilt-A-Whirl was replaced with a new model in '03, but not the Whip). Further, Hersheypark's Whip is a new model, and personally I don't like it too much - but that's just me - YMMV.
millrace said:
I think you may be a little off on your numbers, Jimvid.I count at least 10 whips in the US alone (Rye, Bushkill, Hersheypark, Dorney, Knoebels, Kennywood, Idlewild, Camden, Lesourdsville Lake, Lakeside) and I can think of 3 crazy dazys (used to be 4 until Stricker's removed theirs )
Not nitpicking, I'm just curious about rare rides.
I'm not sure of the other cuddle ups you are talking of - where are they? I was under the impression that Knoebels was the only PTC model left and that there were other similar rides by different manufacturers
I don't count Hershey's Whip because it is definitely not a Mangels, and it's an incredibly poor excuse for a ride. I didn't count LeSourdsville as it's not open, BUT that still makes my count wrong. I should also add that Whaloms is in storage in NH and I've been told might reappear. I also recently learned of another operating one at Heritage Park in Calgary (although poorly operated from my understanding).
Let me know about the Cuddle ups!
Jim
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