I think it's about time we discussed this.....

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Rob Ascough said:
Tattoos (possible cause of skin cancer)

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There is not one shred of evidence that tattoos cause cancer. Waiting in an uncovered queue for two hours without sun block, there you might have a case.

Tats and piercings can cause Hepatitis and infection.

Actually the Tats themselves can't but the unsteril needles can.

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Lord Gonchar said:I guess my point is that if rides currently accomodate average sized people (and that's a broad generalization), then won't shifting the scale just alienate a different group of riders?

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I dunno, Gonch, but on Everest on three separate days, I saw no one get turned away...not even ONE!

Gonch brings up a good point. This is only speculation (not being an industial designer) but I have a feeling quite a wide range of sizes can be accomodated. One of the main points here is that a lot of coasters accomodate the same people that Intamin can't.

Of course there is a limit, otherwise there would be no such things as height requirements and there wouldn't be laws requireing car seats for children riding in cars.

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Charles Nungester said:
Tats and piercings can cause Hepatitis and infection.

Actually the Tats themselves can't but the unsteril needles can.

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How many tattoo and piercing parlors have you been to? I'm guessing zero, because every time I've been pierced, the needle and jewelry came out of a sterile package, to say nothing of the fact that the piercer changed gloves two or three times.

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rollergator said:
I dunno, Gonch, but on Everest on three separate days, I saw no one get turned away...not even ONE!

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But is that due to the restraints or due to rider knowledge/expectations?

I've never seen someone turned away from a ride due to size...ever! (I admittedly haven't been in MF's queue since the change was made)

I don't think it's the restraint design, I think it's a case of certain people knowing they'll have a problem. I've seen plenty of very large people at parks, I've just never seen them trying to squeeze it all into a coaster seat.

*** Edited 7/27/2006 4:56:59 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***

Gonch: B&M has restraints that accomodate everyone from cute little blondes to big burly guys who are more than "just muscle". Considering that, and the fact that Intamin has managed to find a way to (sometimes) launch trains to 120+ MPH with hydraulics, is it unreasonable to expect them to be able to engineer a restraint system that is less selective than the one they've been using on some of their modern rides?

Jeff: Maybe tattoos don't cause cancer, I don't really know. But whatever... there are arguably downsides to getting tattoos just as there are downsides to just about everything else in this world and that is the point I was trying to make.

The issue at SFNE was not that the guy wasn't properly restrained. Don't blame it on his belly or Intamin. Blame it on SF ride operator(s) that didn't ensure he was secured.

It's. That. Simple.

Then how do you explain other fatalities on Intamin rides?

Two of which were normal or petite sized people?

Jeff, where did I leave room to assume?

I said unsterile needles and the like can cause it. Not a artist who's doing it the correct way.

Chuck

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Rob Ascough said:
Gonch: B&M has restraints that accomodate everyone from cute little blondes to big burly guys who are more than "just muscle". Considering that, and the fact that Intamin has managed to find a way to (sometimes) launch trains to 120+ MPH with hydraulics, is it unreasonable to expect them to be able to engineer a restraint system that is less selective than the one they've been using on some of their modern rides?

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But is it really that widespread of an issue? Outside of MF, I mean. I don't hear complaints of people not being able to ride Storm Runner or Kingda Ka or Xclerator or even the S:ROS rides.

I suspect most of the complaints in this thread are just a barely veiled "I'm mad that I can't ride MF anymore" thing.

With that aside, I do think it's unreasonable to expect them to engineer an restaraint capable of safely securing bigger riders, because I don't suspect it's that big of an issue in the first place.

If it were, then ridership on these coasters would be much lower simply due to the fact that so many of us 'larger Americans' couldn't ride and that's simply not the case.

And if you're really angry about it, then be pissed at the parks that continue to buy these rides that 'discriminate' against certain body types. Shouldn't they know the make-up of their audience?

I really think that the whole thing is essentially a non-issue outside of one big blue coaster in Ohio.

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Lord Gonchar said:

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rollergator said:I dunno, Gonch, but on Everest on three separate days, I saw no one get turned away...not even ONE!

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But is that due to the restraints or due to rider knowledge/expectations?

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Are you saying that Disney guests are MORE aware of that stuff than, say, CP guests....that's an argument I would NEVER buy into...

Disney rides are built to accommodate the *widest* possible range of guest dimensions...IMO. Not that I *know* anything, just based on experience....and I have seen guests turned away from MF in my one visit since the restraints changed...

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Neuski said:The issue at SFNE was not that the guy wasn't properly restrained. Don't blame it on his belly or Intamin. Blame it on SF ride operator(s) that didn't ensure he was secured.

It's. That. Simple.

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I don't really believe it IS that simple. Still not sure whether they failed to close the seatbelt, or whether it WAS in fact locked but was BEHIND Stanley M., or what...

I *do* fully believe that his pre-existing condition prevented him from having the *trunk stability* necessary to keep him UPRIGHT in his seat...esp. when it came to the high-laterals section of track, where someone whose positioned LATERALLY in their seat might fly out...or get their hand caught in/on/under the wheels...

I think he'd have returned to the station intact had EITHER of these not been the case...

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rollergator said:
Are you saying that Disney guests are MORE aware of that stuff than, say, CP guests....that's an argument I would NEVER buy into...

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Poor wording on my part. I didn't mean Disney in particular, I meant parks in general.

Without beating around the bush any longer...

Maybe most people of excessive size, weight or girth just know better than to try to fit on most of these coasters in the first place?

Again, most of these rides, regardless of manufacturer, safely accomodate a very wide range of sizes and body types - to a degree that is quite impressive to me.

Aside from MF, no one is really citing example of rides turning away "supersized Americans" in large (or even relevant) numbers.

I've seen/know of people that got turned away from lots of Intamin rides- Drop Zone @ PKI, Wicked Twister @ CP, Steel Venom @ Geauga Lake and the three S:ROS coasters. That, to me, definitely signals a problem. And getting back to that big blue coaster in Sandusky, there IS a problem when, all of a sudden, many people that were once able to ride are being turned away.

But you're right, I do blame the parks as well. Intamin rides have numerous problems and parks keep investing in their rides, which more or less makes it okay to keep doing what they've done. I know that if I were Cedar Fair and a good number of my guests were unable to ride what is still the most well-known ride at the park and a major marketing tool, I would have insisted they come up with a solution that goes beyond shortening the seatbelts.

Why is it unreasonable to expect Intamin design proper restraints when many of their competitors have been doing that for years without any trouble? For a company with engineers as talented as theirs, that should be a piece of cake.

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Charles Nungester said:
Tats and piercings can cause Hepatitis and infection.

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You know that I don't think you're an idiot, Chuck, so I say this with respect- I'm more worried about what creepy crawlies I'd pick up from the lapbars of my favorite coasters than getting a sterile piece of steel shoved into me.

My sister's roommate caught hep-C from a bad tat...not saying that it "happens all the time", and certainly not if done PROPERLY, but, it can and does happen...

Back to the Intamin question, Rob A. said: Why is it unreasonable to expect Intamin design proper restraints when many of their competitors have been doing that for years without any trouble? For a company with engineers as talented as theirs, that should be a piece of cake.

They're waiting until there's a "significant number" of fatalities... :(

Shame, too, because their rides are THAT much more intense than the other steel mfrs. out there...*shrug*

*** Edited 7/27/2006 6:18:43 PM UTC by rollergator***

I just don't understand why it shouldn't be expected for one of the world's largest ride manufacturers to do what others have been doing for years.

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Neuski said:
The issue at SFNE was not that the guy wasn't properly restrained. Don't blame it on his belly or Intamin. Blame it on SF ride operator(s) that didn't ensure he was secured.

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Spoken like someone who never bothered to read the report. The ride operators were just one of *four* factors they concluded contributed to his death, the major factor being the restraint's failure to secure him. The only reason ride operators were mentioned is because it's questionable whether or not his restraints were checked. Some witnesses said they were, and some said they weren't. There's nothing "simple" about it.

I agree with LG that the only major issue with Intamin restraints is on Millennium Force and, to a lesser extent, the hypercoasters that continue to run with the old style Intamin t-bar. The restraints Intamin is using now (as seen on Storm Runner and Kingda Ka) are much more accomodating.

Intamin's big goof (IMO, of course) was not that they designed a restraint that couldn't accomodate a wide range of body sizes, but one that completely failed to include any sort of system to determine who was too big and who wasn't. Going back to SFNE's S:ROS for a minute, it's easy to scream that the ride ops were at fault because he was "clearly too big." Except we only know that now because he fell out. How was anyone to know that then? That's the major mistake on Intamin's part.

I'm sure it sucks for people who could once ride MF and now cannot. But I think safety is far more important than guest satisfaction. The system Cedar Point implemented on Millennium Force works to counter what Intamin failed to include on these rides - a system that determines who is and who is not too large to ride. I'm far less concerned with larger people not being able to ride than I am with why the hell Intamin thought such a determining factor was unnecessary in the first place.

-Nate

Then how do you explain other fatalities on Intamin rides?

Wasn't the term Sandor used "accepible loss" or something like that? ;)