I think it's about time we discussed this.....

Thursday, July 27, 2006 4:43 PM
It is, but it isn't. Both are kinda windy ;)
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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:14 PM
oh my god, everytime i go back to read how this thread has progressed i get a head ache! its like im reading something a bunch of adhd kids slabbed together. back to the topic at hand: people who are over-over weight and not being able to fit into rides.

the people here who compare obesity to diseases and skinny people are not making sense. if you have a disease or are skinny, you can still ride a roller coaster. the first post specifically targeted people who are large enough to not fit into rides.

the point is, over weight people can lose weight. fact. weight problems should not be compared to diseases or people who are skinny, or short, etc... if someone who is too skinny and could not ride a roller coaster (i highly doubt this) then i would tell them to gain some serious weight, go to a vitamin shop and drink all the protein shakes in the world.

as for diseases im actually embaressed for the people who even compared weight problems to a disease. how does this comparison make sense? lol. its not even fair to the people suffering from a disease to compare them to a person with a weight problem. shame on you. i have family with cancer and my grandfather died of als and i never got to know him.

i think the people here who are emotionally distraught over the fact that people with weight problems are leading unhealthy lives and probably disgust other people, are the ones who might be insecure with their own weight. it makes me laugh that people here are trying to justify that it is okay to be over-weight and that because "they cannot help themselves" that having a weight problem is positive. what kind of message are you trying to send to the people who might browse this board?

a fine point that was brought up was that our country is the only one with a weight problem. someone here try to explain to me why is it that the united states has a rising health issue of over weight americans and sincerely state that it isnt their fault for being over weight. it is not like its some disease that is only isolated in america and cannot travel else where.

i thought people here had some intellect, but apparently i am mistaken...

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:17 PM

Jeff said:

Rob Ascough said:
But whatever... there are arguably downsides to getting tattoos...
None of which are health issues, only yours.


Rob Ascough said:
But don't you think Cedar Fair should have pressured Intamin to fix the restraints, since many people that could once ride were turned away in subsequent years?
Don't you think they've been doing that from the beginning? Do you think they want to deal with pissed off people? Sorry to sound like a fanboy, but I know those people, and the last thing in the world they want is pissed off guests. It's not a money issue.


If this were true, Raptor would have big boy seats. Like just about every other B&M has been given.

Sorry, They may not want pissed off people but effort by them could reduce it.

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:18 PM
Mamoosh's avatar mike s. - I'd rather be stupid and show compassion for other human beings than to be as smart as you and not.


edited to make it clearer who I was replying to.


*** Edited 7/27/2006 9:19:49 PM UTC by Mamoosh***

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:26 PM
Funny, I very rarely post but whenever I get drawn out, it seems to be because of a few similiar topics. This is one of them.

As I've said before and I think something that is at the core of this argument is that ride operators have to at *all* times design rides with the smallest possible rider in mind. So, if the height requirement for a ride is 54", they have to design a ride for someone who is 54" tall and carries less than 100 pounds on their frame. Doing so means that some larger guests will get excluded.

In the past, some people have argued that coaster trains should be made to accomodate the most number of people on average, which would be making them bigger and disallowing those who are too small. But how can a park check for someone who is 'too small'? They can't. Unfortunately, larger riders or riders with different dimensions can be ruled out because of this. I have a friend who is 6'7" and is ruled out of riding some rides because he is simply too tall. It's unfortunate, but he understands that this is just the way it is.

As for the size of the restraints, what it really comes down to is the type of the restraints that are used. As is constantly brought up, Intamin restraints tend to not fit larger people very well. Something that is not brought up, but I can definitely attest to from firsthand knowledge is that B&M restraints tend to limit strong upper-body people from riding. Their OTSH design is very tight on the upper body, and while people with larger bellys fit easier, those with larger shoulders do not. This problem is multiplied by strong people who are taller, as the top of the restraint is even more restrictive than lower (probably to accommodate for women riders).

Now, I'm not saying that the Intamin sit-down coaster restraint design is good, but it is what they have gone with. After the Superman issue, Intamin had to do something to deal with their design flaw, and that's what it was. And it isn't the first time that something like this has happened on a ride, but since it affected people who were older it was a much bigger deal. Rides have had their height requirements changed, including roller coasters in the past for whatever reasons. I've been on hand to witness children cry because they weren't tall enough to ride their favorite coaster which they had ridden the year before because the height requirement changed. But they were too young to go and post about it on message boards.

And before I go on, make no doubt about it -- the problem with the Intamin rides is because of a poor design of the harnesses. A seatbelt should not be the necessary part to keep you in your seat. The seatbelt on a ride should only provide the back-up in case the harness were to suffer a catosrophic failure during the ride, and if the harness functions there should be no way for a patron to fall out of the ride.

Most modern restraint systems are designed so that as long as the harnesses are at a certain point, even the smallest person can safely ride. For an example, this is the point that the seat belts buckle on most of the B&M rides. If the seat belt buckles and the harness is loose, even a 54" tall (or whatever the requirement is) person who weighs 50 pounds will make it through the ride. Newer B&Ms even have onboard computers to ensure that all harnesses are at this point, and will not allow themselves to be sent without it.

Now, the problem that Intamin has is that the harness safety is designed so that the rides are only safe if the harness is very close to the rider or if the seatbelt is tight. Personally, I love the open feeling of the trains but this is _not_ the best way to make a design. Because of it, the Superman accident occured. And because Intamin has not fixed it, the updated rules for Millenium Force have been taken on due to a manufacturers defect -- not a ride op issue.

Should Intamin redesign their harnesses? Undoubtedly. From having worked with them, their ride safety systems are so far below what B&M and S&S have done that it is surprising, yet because they are willing to push the limits and have technology that other companies are not yet exploiting, they remain the company to build certain types of rides with. And their rides are very good, as I'm sure many of us here would agree with.

Now, a few things in closing:

- Train designs are the largest factor in determining who can ride. An open air lap bar design (such as Intamin) is probably the hardest to design for all body types, while a closed in lap bar design (such as wooden coasters) is the easiest.

- I firmly believe that coasters should be built that accomodate people who are overweight, but not grossly overweight. A person who is 20 pounds overweight should be able to ride just about anything. A person who is 200, well, I'm sorry.

- I understand that in some cases, weight loss can be extremely difficult to do. In this case, if the ride is not designed to fit you properly, the choice is either to lose weight or to not ride. I fully appreciate that this may be difficult for people, but if your favorite thing to do is riding coasters, I have faith that you won't allow your weight to get in the way of your hobby. If you do, I do look at it as making a choice. And I understand that the choice may have been made because you do not have enough time to work out or to watch what you eat or whatever, and that's fine. But I also understand that the train won't change, and I hope that you do too.

With all of that said, I hope that everyone is trying to take as good of care of themselves as possible. I need to get back on the exercise machines again myself, as I'm sure that I probably can't fit in those horrid Intamin restraints anymore myself. And next year, I am planning on making a big trip around the country and stopping at MF, which I definitely want to ride again. What a better goal for losing weight than one of the coasters that is known for being one of the best in the world?

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:27 PM
janfrederick's avatar One of the few ways we can really judge intellect around here is your ability to write properly.

Other than that, I don't think anyone here is saying that being overweight is a good thing. It is a very real problem that we as a country need to deal with.

Aside from that, I also think Gonch has a good point with this really being an MF issue.

Emotionally distraught? Not really. I'm a big guy who needs to lose some weight...but could care less what some kid with a "head ache" thinks. ;)


"I go out at 3 o' clock for a quart of milk and come home to my son treating his body like an amusement park!" - Estelle Costanza
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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:32 PM

Mamoosh said:
mike s. - I'd rather be stupid and show compassion for other human beings than to be as smart as you and not.


edited to make it clearer who I was replying to.


*** Edited 7/27/2006 9:19:49 PM UTC by Mamoosh***


Well said Moosh. As someone whose weight changed quite dramatically (from skinny to chunky) due to an acquired disability I know I'm happier being judged than being the judge. My word of advice to the all-knowing mr.s is that it is never wise to presume that life is all ladders because with the best of intentions, we all encounter snakes...

Humility is such an under-rated quality in humankind nowadays ;)

-Jimvy! :)

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:39 PM

Mamoosh said:
mike s. - I'd rather be stupid and show compassion for other human beings than to be as smart as you and not.


edited to make it clearer who I was replying to.


*** Edited 7/27/2006 9:19:49 PM UTC by Mamoosh***


spoken like a true hippy. yeah its good to show some compassion and sympathy for people who are slowly killing themselves with high blood pressure and on the verge of a heart-attack, or to lose their limbs from diabetes. well spoken. i think people that eat and eat away are selfish and mindless. they blame it on mcdonalds and other fast food chains for having outragious calorie content. then why still eat at those places? lol, we all know its unhealthy! why not take a stand and not eat at these places? people who are overweight are selfish, there are people starving in other countries. im embaressed to be in a country known for a dumb president already, but to be known to other respected countries as people who are slobs and unfit? give me a break. if it was hard for you to lose weight, thats a common phenomenon. but you lost weight, you stuck to it, kudos to you. im proud of your dedication. you of all people should side with a healthier lifestyle.

playing innocent, like you have compassion and i dont for people. lol, i respect human life, i wont be silenced and allow other people to set a horrible example of being unactive in their life. darwin's theory of evolution has proven itself over time, do you think i want our race to die out in the long run early because people like to fatten themselves? you have to be kidding me. so im not compassionate? the only thing i dont have compassion for is people who can do something about their lives to better themselves, to save themselves, but chose not to and then complain about their faults. it makes me laugh whole heartedly. if you chose to be over-weight and unhealthy, thats kinda fine with me if you have no problem with it. but do not, i mean do not, tell me or anyone else here that you cannot help yourself. anyone who claims this is not even human to me.

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:41 PM
oh yeah i forgot intellect is judged based on writing on some forum on the internet. the only thing about intellect that should be judged upon, is the point trying to be made.
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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:42 PM

coasterdude318 said:
Going back to SFNE's S:ROS for a minute, it's easy to scream that the ride ops were at fault because he was "clearly too big." Except we only know that now because he fell out. How was anyone to know that then? That's the major mistake on Intamin's part.

You and I weren't in the station that day, so we have no idea what happened. But I'm willing to bet that his lapbar was not down far enough, as Intamin had intended it to be used, which would fall into fault of the op, not Intamin.

For me, I have felt the most secure in an Intamin train. Maybe I'm just a rebel. ;)

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:44 PM

mike.s. said:
oh yeah i forgot intellect is judged based on writing on some forum on the internet. the only thing about intellect that should be judged upon, is the point trying to be made.

... and proper grammar.

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:50 PM
spoken like a true nit picker who cannot focus on the points made. i didnt realize discussing a topic that is 100% wrong of people to let themselves go would be so controversial, comparable to discussing religion or politics. lol, kudos to you my friend!
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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:50 PM

mike.s. said:
darwin's theory of evolution has proven itself over time, do you think i want our race to die out in the long run early because people like to fatten themselves?

Sliding off topic for a moment, but don't bring up Darwin's theories if you don't understand them. Behavioral traits (such as "liking to fatten oneself") is not an inheritable trait, and therefore is not applicable to the theory of evolution.

Neuski,
I certainly wasn't in the station that day, but I've read and re-read the report many, many times. The investigation into whether or not the lapbar was down was inconclusive, but there were witnesses who said it *was* touching his lap. Whether that's down "far enough" is impossible for a ride op to tell, and that's exactly my point (and the point that thecoasterguy got at as well). WIthout a go/no go system (like a seatbelt) that can determine a passenger's maximum allowed size, you can't blame the ops for letting people on who were apparently just too large. Ride ops can't make a judgement call based on appearance alone.

-Nate

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:52 PM
ApolloAndy's avatar Mike S. - Is your solution to alcohol, drug, and nicotine addictions that people should just stop?

Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:54 PM

coasterdude318 said:

mike.s. said:
darwin's theory of evolution has proven itself over time, do you think i want our race to die out in the long run early because people like to fatten themselves?

Sliding off topic for a moment, but don't bring up Darwin's theories if you don't understand them. Behavioral traits (such as "liking to fatten oneself") is not an inheritable trait, and therefore is not applicable to the theory of evolution.

-Nate


people here are claiming it is like a disease to eat and not lose weight. therefore it is excusable for me to include the theory of evolution in this topic. thanks!

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:56 PM

ApolloAndy said:
Mike S. - Is your solution to alcohol, drug, and nicotine addictions that people should just stop?

im going to admit, i have an addiction. i got to AA 4 times a week. dont tell me about addictions. eating yourself to a slow death is nothing like an addiction to a substance. you dont withdraw from food, lol. you dont have a clue man. nice try though. ha ha

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:56 PM
ApolloAndy's avatar I actually happen to be in recovery myself - go twice a week.

As you know from recovery, addiction isn't about a substance or a behavior, it's about escaping reality. Some people fill the emptiness with booze, some fill it with food, some fill it with gambling. Why is it hard to imagine that some people escape with food?

It's been shown that the chemical reaction from an overeater eating is very similar to the chemical reaction from a drinker drinking.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all people who're overweight are addicts. Just saying that the solution is never as simple as "Just stop." *** Edited 7/27/2006 10:01:49 PM UTC by ApolloAndy*** *** Edited 7/27/2006 10:04:29 PM UTC by ApolloAndy***


Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:58 PM
yeah so you would understand that food is nothing compared to your addiction. wow, someone with an addiction problem and still no credibility. way to make yourself look pointless...
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Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:59 PM
The issue is not about being too fat, or the reasons (laziness versus thyroid, etc) somebody is fat. These threads always turn into this type of endless debate with zero hope for consensus.

The issue is simply about rider behavior. To hold up the rest of the line, regardless of what may cause your obesity is plain rude! If you are borderline obese, then you should indeed use the "dummy" seat to make sure you are capable of quickly and efficiently getting on/off the ride. While obese people certainly may not have the ability or will-power to lose weight, is it too much to ask that they, as human beings, have the courtesy to not interfere with other riders?

I indeed include myself in this category as I'm pushing 230 and am not sure if I could ride MF (etc) today. You can bet that I would not be so selfish as to hold up the rest of the line so I could "test" the seats in the station. It is just common sense that you do not hold up the majority because of your own selfish desires to ride something you may not fit in.

If parks do not provide a "dummy" seat and fair warning for practice, then there is indeed reason for alarm. However, I still feel it is rude for an overweight person to hold up the line and wait for an attendant to push the bar (belt, etc) down. You should quickly assess the situation as to your ability to fit and then move to the exit so as to not interfere with operations. If there is good reason for anger/disagreement it should be addressed at customer service so as to not affect those guests waiting behind you in line. It is not the general public's fault that you may not fit.

While we are on the subject of rudeness...I think it is equally as rude to call out "fat people" who are minding their own business. I've done so in the past, and realize how immature this line of thinking is. It is none of mine, or anybody else's business why a person is overweight. Who am I, or any of you, to tell other people how to live their lives? We live in a free society which gives everybody the right to eat and look as they may. Until a person behaves in a manner that interferes with the majority, then there is no reason to comment.

So anyhow...this whole thread is worthless as we seem to be heading down the path of differing opinions of what is and is not the appropriate weight. And what is and is not a fair cause of obesity. It is impossible to get everybody to agree on this.

It is, however, quite possible to get reasonable-minded people to agree that behaviors that interfere with other park guests should not be tolerated.

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Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:00 PM
now back to the topic, ive shared my opinion, which many people who are healthy would agree upon. start getting healthy people! dont do it for others, do it for yourselves and you will live a better life!
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