Holiday World's Will Koch issues letter to enthusiasts, cancels all 2004 events

Yup. as a coaster enthusiast WE should set a example to follow for others as well as ourselves....... But just saying that the rider operators should still closley inspect the restraints also it is by far not only there responsability to (sp?) unfortunatly when it comes to saftey you have to treat as if everyone is dumb. I think that ride operators should check anyway. Maby go back to having a booth with a person in it sitting at top of the hill with a kill switch to monitor the ride for unsafe activities even. But it would be cheaper to solve it all b4 the train even leaves the station. Also sure it was her doing but instead of being in the back what if she was in the front and rolled accross the top possibly breaking necks of alot of people in the train. That then makes it the parks problem not just her problem. This is why I think that there needs to be a set amount of distance. I dont want to be riding a coaster and then a body come flying into me. I do blame her for her actions but I do feel sorry that it happened. Im sure she didnt intend for this to happen and my deepest thoughts go to the family and freinds. by all means im not trying to be hurtful with this post. Just stating what could be diffrent*** This post was edited by TheRIckser 9/19/2003 7:21:42 PM ***

I am actually glad this discussion is going as well as it has so far. To me, that means people are willing to make a step in the positive direction. Sad to say though, my guess is the parks have been getting e-mails from people telling them they made the wrong choice. Lert's hope I am wrong on that account.

Also, I have a hunch that a very important letter will be sent out very, very soon that will bring a lot more attention to this whole topic than we have seen so far.

That's enough from me on this thread.

-Sean

I reiterate:

This isn't about seat belts and lap bar clicks.

This is about inviting your friends over for dinner and not feeling like you have to count the silverware before they leave.

This is about a problem that has been growing for years. Eventually it was going to erupt; it's just a shame that it took a fatal accident to catalyze that eruption.
There have been letters sent to ACE members on a regular basis by the organizational President. I know I have seen articles and editorials by every ACE president since I joined in '91. But it never seems to do any good. I still get wind of "shocking misdeeds" when I talk with well-connected ACEers.
Well, maybe now that the word is coming from outside the organization, perhaps it will be more successful.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I'm finding it interesting that I'm finding more statements on this moderated thread that could be considered liability problems then on the unmoderated newsgroup RRC. Making statements like "this park allowed this at this time" and "that park allowed this at that time" are, I think, the precise kind of statements that HW is (justifiably) very, very upset about.

The fact that people have continued doing it in this thread despite the plea for people to stop in the above letter suggests to me (a lurker and outsider) that many more events need to be cancelled (maybe for a long time) before certain amazingly stubborn people learn anything.

Assorted, you are telling me that stating cold hard facts is wrong? I don't think that is what they mean by their statement, in fact I think that stuff really needs to be pointed out.

Now if I were to say "I did such and such and such and such to gain some extra room" or "you go do this and this and your lap bar goes flying up" I woudl definitely agree that that is the exact kind of thing they are talking about.

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If I was part of a coaster, I would be an upstop pad on an Arrow Mine Train.
MAGNUM HAD MY BABY!

I don't understand this at all, someone dies from breaking park rules and all you can do is blame Robb and Elissa you will notice they are alive and well. . . and as far as Robb taking cameras on the coasters that has nothing to do with this at all that is not at all why the event was called off, are you people all this desperate for a scapegoat, its like you all feel guilty because you have all done the same crap but blame Robb and Elissa, you all make your own decisions what someone sees on a wabsite does not make them do the same thing. Lay off of Robb and Elissa they arn't the cause of this situation the ride ops did let the train pull out with the bars up that high and unless they wern't checked it was known they were riding with the bars up like that when the coaster was dispatched.

"One of their most popular seller is them acting like nuts in parks. Just watch the PGA video on their site to see that".

As far as this I was at the park with them and nothing we did was against the rules by any means ( and I have worked there for years ) we were just having fun but I guess that offends you for some reason

Flashback0978,

Perhaps you missed the part of the letter than said, "This includes posting advice about how to defeat safety devices and how to sneak cameras (when forbidden) onto coasters."

I'd say that it most certainly DOES have to do with this topic. If you don't want to deal with the issues and just want to defend them, go back to Westcoaster. Thanks!

PS, cameras are not allowed on rides at PGA, yet there was much onride footage in that segment. I don't think "nothing we did was against the rules" was a correct statement.

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You suck big time.

I have never seen any advice regarding how to defeat saftey devices or how to sneak cameras on rides on his site ever, and the PGA ride ops do allow cameras on the rides if it is against the rules no one has told them that, whenI was a ride op the rule was cameras could be taken on the back seats of the coasters and this was in print and it still isn't the issue Robb taking a camera on a coaster didn't cause this accident *** This post was edited by Flashback0978 9/19/2003 9:11:07 PM ***

I know that, in theory, ride ops are an extension of the park and are expected to enforce the rules. I'm a little confused about when we became so naive as to believe that they have the final say as to what is safe riding or not.

Ride ops break rules too, folks.

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--Maddie--
What do I Listen-To?
May the Schwarz be with you.

Folks,

I was looking at the Amusement Business website today.

FYI - In the Amusement Business that is coming out on Monday, the Holiday World letter and the Cedar Fair letter are going to be the subject in a leading article.

If your an AB customer can read the article online now if you wish. Consistant with AB's policy and Jeff's policies I am not going to copy the article here. However paid subscribers can follow this link to the article:

http://www.amusementbusiness.com/amusementbusiness/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1983037

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All that said:

I am saddened, but support the decision. As Rideman said, it's really a trust issue, and that trust has been violated.

But to keep this objective, the move to cancel SRM 2004 is a sound one on so many levels. Sensitivity to the victm's family, sensitivity for the ride crews, sensitivity for the rest of the Holiday World staff.

Now that the trust has been broken its time to move beyond "Who did what when" and move to how to regain the trust we once enjoyed.

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David Bowers
Mayor, Coasterville

Anyone ever see the video of Paul Ruben riding Millennium Force during a media day (prop opening day for media) with his lap bar far enough from where it should be he was passing his arm through the space between his lap, and the bar, and showing off to the camera, and laughing as it left the station as if he was getting away with something.

I am sure most of you were told by the time you all were at least 4 years old that "two wrongs do not make a right". Here is the translation to the enthusiasts. If you choose not to lower your lap bar/shoulder harness/seatbelt/termites holding hands, and the ride operator/ops supervisor/owner standing on the platform does not check tightly/push down/step on the damn thing, it DOES GIVE ANYONE the right to ride in an unsafe manner deemed so by by state inspectors, designers, and or engineers, which here it goes.....are none of you.

You lose your camera/sunglasses/cell phone/car keys or whatever...you know what...you dropped it, and if it breaks, tough ****. If it hits someone....YOU are responsible. Park owners are saying oh so gently that a whole large group of you ARE NOT responsible. They are not about to let their lifes' work end up in the hands of lawyers because enthusiasts who have only one hobby (you need 3-4 to be balanced, mind you) and live and die by rollercoaster news.

Certain enthusiasts are confusing reality with fantasy, and by reading these comments, several of you still feel obligated to argue the points. Owners one after the other will stop events, and you know what? Its their park. They are a proud bunch, and they ALL talk to each other, like all manangers like us ALL talk to each other. Park operators are hip to beligerent behavior more than ever. Act like a normal park guest, and be safe. That is all they ask. Is that too much?

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"Step on that lapbar and make it nice and tight!"

This is a direct question to Jeff:

Mr. Koch mentioned that the zero tolerance policy covers information spread on the internet. If you were asked by Holiday World management to give them the names or any kind of information about posters who brag about breaking rules, would you help the management?

I'm not being sarcastic, but I'd really like to know whose side you would take. The two options I see are to either allow free speech on these forums or to help the management ban the delinquents.

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For original NoLimits creations go to My NoLimits Webpage

Paula Werne put up a great post tonight on RRC addressing the park's mindset regarding 2004. You can read it here (sorry for the long link):

http://wnews.easyusenet.com/wnews-free.cgi?c=a&m=687a2618%2e0309191803%2e3cb6c0f1%40posting%2egoogle%2ecom&i=299608&g=%72%65%63%2e%72%6f%6c%6c%65%72%2d%63%6f%61%73%74%65%72

Given what she posted, I'd like to withdraw my earlier assertion that the event should go on in 2004. I now understand their mindset and support the decision.

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Mike Miller - Still hoping SRM is only taking a year off...*** This post was edited by BaSSiStiSt 9/19/2003 11:58:37 PM ***

Coastration, passing people's names on isn't violating free speech. Jeff isn't preventing anyone from saying anything.

Furthermore, it's his site. If he wants to * out the word "osmosis" that's tough for you.

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Be polite and ignore the idiots. - rollergator
"It's not a Toomer" - Arnold Schwartzenkoph
"Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know." -Jeff

If you have not followed the link posted by BaSSiStiSt, DO IT NOW.

Paula's eloquent words will put all this into perspective very quickly.

They're people, and they are strugglng with broken hearts.

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Without the chaindog, you'd never get up the lifthill...

After the announcement was made, I went through many emotions that centered on me, the coaster community, and the family and friends of Ms. Fellner. Thank you, Paula, for reminding me that another family has been devistated by all this - the Holiday World Family. I cannot imagine the pain all this and surrounding discussions have caused for a group of people who welcomed me, a total stranger, with open arms as a member of the family.

Paula's words are absolutely perfect. Holiday World has not turned their backs on us. For now, they need to focus their attentions on themselves and as family, we should understand and encourage them in that decision.

And yes, Chaindog is correct, read the post ASAP - it will help sort out all those emotions and realize the one that matters is compassion.

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I sing sometimes for the war that I fight, 'cause every tool is a weapon, if you hold it right. -Ani Difranco

Chaindog. Yes, they have broken hearts, but at the same time, they know that they don't need this reputation of being a park with a death toll. Especially since the accident was caused by rider misconduct.

Some of you may flame away at me for what I am about to say, but I really don't care.

I have never, and I still don't care for enthusiast clubs. The only reason I am a CB club member is to support Jeff and his site. He has stated in the past that the club helps pays the bills for this site. That is why my $20 gets transferred to his account. As far as I am concerned, ACE and all the other big name clubs could end from this point on and I could really care less.

I have been to one event in my life and that was CBCon03 at SFGAm. Only reason I went to that was because it was 45 minutes from my house and I wanted my daughter to enjoy ERT on the new coaster at the park.

Holiday World is a great place and I enjoyed my first ever visit during.... gasp... a regular operating day. SRM, while I am sure is a great experience, didn't pull me in to visit.

To the enthusiasts that love this event and follow the rules, I am sorry for your loss. To the rest of you that take this event for granted, you deserve never to attend an event like this again.

Luckily the CB peeps I have met seem to be in the same mindset as myself. Props to Nasai, chris, Peabody, Echo-victor, Sparky, and Top Thrill Magster. You guys make me proud to be a coaster enthusiast and I enjoyed riding with you guys.

This is supposed to be a hobby and not a life altering obsession. I hope others feel the same way.

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Arena football has arrived in the Windy City. Go "Chicago Rush"

The Koch Letter was phrased totally different from Paula's words in the link above.

Blend the two together and I doubt anyone would disagree with their decision.

MrScott

I should like to point out that my earlier objection to the cancellation of the enthusiast events was based on the decisions dubious effaciacy in preventing future misconduct. I stand by this argument.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to access the link provided by BaSSiStiSt. However, from subsequent postings I get the impression it indicates that the decision to cancel the events was, in fact, due to the feelings of the park staff/out of respect to the friends and family for the victim. In that context, the cancellations seem ENTIRELY appropriate.

All the best.