Holiday World's Will Koch issues letter to enthusiasts, cancels all 2004 events

It's not just ACE.

Rumor has it that another well known enthusiasts group neccesitated some changes on a coaster.

The accident was not even during ERT. If Tamar had been a member of CBuzz or Coaster Zombies, or not a club member at all it wouldn't have a made a difference.

No club sanctions these kind of actions, individuals are the ones who "take things into there own hands"

I have heard of people here on Cbuzz who are guilty of some of these same things.

It's not just an issue with ACE, it's an issue with enthusiasts.

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If I was part of a coaster, I would be an upstop pad on an Arrow Mine Train.
MAGNUM HAD MY BABY!

"This is yet another reason why I am not going to ever be a member ACE ever again. I like the fact that they do good things in and around the theme park and rollercoaster community, but the things they think (and sometimes do) get away with makes the club in my eyes lose all credibility. "

Blanket statements like this really frustrate me. Why are you faulting ACE members as a whole? There are many of us who are ACE members that have never/will never function with that kind of mentality.

Speak for yourself.

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Shaggy

Some interesting points to think about Sean, Jeff (Putz and Peabody), and Brent and I agree for the most part. Not in my wildest dreams could I imagine fellow enthusiasts taking off their seatbelts/standing up during the ride for an extra little thrill. If this is a huge issue (and it sounds like it is), I'm extremely pleased with the decision.

-Danny, Oye (Open your eyes)!

*If* HW ever hosts another enthusiasts event I'm willing to bet that it will be called something besides Stark Raven Mad.

I agree with everything that he said in that letter except for that he is apalled at what happened. MagnumForce said it right. They did let us go out like that either way you put it. So I think it's a fault on both the enthusiasts and HW. They did let us go out like that, yet we shouldn't have pushed their buttons and just followed the rules. I think that a cancellation of all events at HW might be a slight bit extreme. All they would have to do is do things like Cedar Point does it. Say put your feet flat on the floor and put the bars down til the touch the lap. Staple me I don't care, I just want another SRM.

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TTD RULES!

Looks like the Alvey videos won't be selling well in the future. They seem to be singled out BIG TIME in this thread as major culprits of breaking safety rules. There is also someone that is no longer with us that I think is the most responsible for all of this(may she rest in peace).

I'm sure many of us have broken park rules in the past but standing up on a coaster and barely securing yourself with the lapbar are just plain stupid.

It's too bad HW has to suffer so much for something that was not their fault. From what I've heard of the park they seem to go out of their way to please the customer. Now they have to deal with all this stuff.

It just isn't right.

I am an closet enthusiast and glad to stay that way. I do not want to be associated with these idiots. I follow the safety instructions. I do air flow simulations for living and simulated roller coasters many times. Granted, there are safety factors involved with these rides, but the wind speed and softness of ground adds variable to the coasters. No one should ever think that it is safe enough because he or she did this before. You need to be as safe as possible.

I like the letter HW sent out. I know these are small number of a group; but if a group knowingly allowed these things to happen, then a group is as guilty as the ones who did this. Police yourselves. Also, do not buy these ride videos unless if you know they are legitimately taped. If no one buys illegal videos, the idiots who tape these videos will not do this.

Did anyone notice in that couple's photos that she was un-belted on the rapids ride? I wonder just how far this mis-behavior goes across the whole park? As for the comment on pointing the finger at ACErs, and not other clubs, I have never in my 11 years in this industry ever had a patch covered tshirt from across the country wearing patron say they are in MACC, WNYCC, or CB, or whatever. "I am am an ACEr" is the comment. I think since they claim to be the largest club, they should take charge and rethink their whole mentality on their operations.

And for what it is worth, maybe they should plan on having some sort of positve p.r. campaign at IAAPA, as no doubt, if more events are cancelled, some of the Orlando press will be asking them what happened. And take no offense, ACE has historically never let the brightest members speak to the media. On the other hand, maybe no comment is better at the trade show.

And that girl in the photo, taking a line from Caddyshack, "The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it!".

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"Step on that lapbar and make it nice and tight!"

Am I surprised at this after seenig the response right on this very site from the Cedar Fair letter? Actually, yes. I'm surprised they waited so long after CF letter was put up and the immediate responses came out.

Jeff and many others in teh community have said it many times and it takes the parks to do this to remind people: The parks don't owe us anything. I've enjoyed the coaster celebration at SFGAdv here in NY/NJ and I've been to Coastermania at CP. If the parks never hold another event again, I'll still enjoy going to these parks and will plan my vacations around my own schedule.

It's a tough decision, but for people who say the park makes money at these events, think again. For the most part, the entry fee is lower than the regular price and extra money is spent on the ride ops to stay longer and security to make sure people lleave when the event is over. If food is included, guess what? The park is paying for that too, so now the cost per person is much lower for the park.

Don't take the words of the parks themselves lightly and don't assume they owe you anything or need you. One regular patron who enjoys the park and goes often is worth far more to them than a one time visit by someone that costs them money to invite and decides that the park rules don't apply to them.

We've been blessed for many years that the parks have tried to cater to our community and if they've gotten tired of being spat upon and looked down on as their generosity is being taken advantage of, then I fully support their decision. In fact, looking at these letters, I'm reminded of something I have neglected for far too long. To visit the Guest Services center to thank these parks for doing a good job no matter what. I'll have to remember that when I go next onth to SFNE's Fright Fest and I go to enjoy the attractions there.

Stupidity ruins the fun for the rest of us? Well, that can be looked at in a few ways I guess. If we weren't being "stupid" then our fun wouldn't be ruined anyways. So a few events got canceled, it's not the end of the world.

Here's my look at this... There's three types of restraints

Safe & Comfortable

Safe & Uncomfortable

Unsafe & Stupid (comfortable)

Personally, if a lapbar is "snug" with my body, it is very uncomfortable. I happen to be a tall, slim guy, so when I get to the bottom of a hill or loop, the restraint ALWAYS tightens on me. The only way for me to prevent being stapled is to give myself a little bit of room. So what if your lap bar is a little high. If you're sitting down, holding on like the rules state, you won't go anywhere. Maybe I'm the only person to notice this, but riding with your hands up is actually considered "unsafe" and "against the rules." It's just so widely accepted that it doesn't actually cause any harm that parks don't try to stop it. They post signs and warnings about keeping your arms inside the car for that reason. You won't ever see a Cedar Fair photograph of people riding with their hands up.

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This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.

I used to practice such unsafe riding activity. That is untill one day at Michigans Adventure. I went there one day and started at Shivering Timbers. I quickly realized that one of the ride hosts was allowing one click rides. I got in about 5 or 6 1 click rides with the seatbelt somewhat loose thinking that nothing could happen. I went off to ride some of the other rides and came back later. I seen the ride host that gave one click rides. I again went to the side he was checking and got another one click ride. This time I let the seatbelt go as loose as it could go. On one of the airtime hills Shivering Timbers is known for, I got a great pop of airtime. Something didn't feel right so I looked down and realized my knees where completely above the seatbelt and lapbar. I quickly grabbed the lapbar in terror and struggled back into the seat. Just the fact that I was only miliseconds away from death scares the hell out of me.

This was the most striking wake up call I have ever had. I quickly changed my thoughts about safety. I'm suprised that more 'enthusiasts' haven't resulted the same fate as the woman who died on Raven. In the end, It's the parks management to create safey policies and up to the ride hosts to enforce them. Idiotic stunts such at the ones pictured and the one I pulled is a safety hazard. It may not be the first, second or 50th time you do it, but eventually fate will catch up. I've seen this story from pretty much every possible way and I'm happy to see such a reaction from Holiday World and Cedar Fair. This leaves one question to the parks who still allow such actions. Why are you waiting for someone to DIE before you start enforcing safety policies?

Peabody,

I guess the one thing we can all do is point out to a ride operator is you see someone breaking the rules. Sure, it can become into a "he said- she said", but the benefit of this is perhaps the idiot in question will think before trying something stupid again. Either that, or just tell someone to sit down, shut up, and ride if you see them acting up.

It should also be noted that while the incident at SRM was at least one of the reasons why these letters went out, enthusiasts breaking rules at events has been going on long before SRM. Cancelling the event is just the first positive step in teaching people to behave IMO.

-Sean

Alvey had a number of videos on his web site that had on ride footage that totally ignored safety rules of no cameras. I'm not sure if all the bad videos were removed but he still has some on-ride pictures on his site, namely what I think is Excalibur at Valleyfair (link). Also, some on-ride photos of Wildthing on the next page.

Alvey and his gang are a big part of the problem. His web site, along with the participants, just reek of an attitude of being above the rules, IMHO.

I do think that certain people have gone way too far, and I totally support Cedar Fair and Holiday World in what they are doing. There are too many people that think they are above the rules, and are entitled to special privileges, just because the spent money to join a club. They are not fun to be around at all.

Matter of fact, I would be delighted if Cedar Point turns Coastermania into a season pass holder appreciation day, and allows only pass holders to participate. At least only true fans of the park would show up, and I bet there would be very little childish whining and complaining. I attended Coastermania mainly because I'm a fan of the park, and I enjoy the presentation and the free food. I felt totally embarrassed however to be part of a group of people that had to be warned by Janice Witherow to be nice to the panel of VP's, probably because of past behavior. Some people just need to grow up and get some balance in their lives!

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I'd rather be in my boat with a drink on the rocks,
than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

Pete,

Not to slam you but even if Cedar Point were to limit their Coastermania event to just season passholders, that doesn't mean the whinning and complaining will stop. Remember, quite a lot of people that attend Coastermania are season pass holders to begin with. I see no reason why people would stop complaining because they are a "true" fan of the park.

-Sean

Lord Gonchar said:

"just want to applaud Will Koch for being the first to have the proverbial "balls" to let the enthusiast groups know that the industry doesn't revolve around them."

I think you hit the nail on the head, Lord Gonchar... Thank you!

Sean......awesome post to you too. You tell it like it is, and I agree with everything you just said. These parks DO NOT owe as anything. So many parks go out of their way to accomodate us at these events and there are always the slimeballs who if you give them an inch they take a mile.

I can see more parks cracking down on these events and perks, and it won't be pretty.

I see some of you would rather not associate yourself with ACE anymore. Please keep in mind that it's not the ACE's fault, or any club for that matter. All organizations have thier psycho members, as well as those who think nothing of abusing their priviledges.

I don't blame the Koch's for their decision to not host any events for next year.

Maybe these clubs should seriously consider taking action against their members who break park rules or who threatens the parks or makes a scene when they don't get what they think they deserve.

When one member ****s up it makes the whole organization look bad. Hopefully HW's decisions will help the clubs take more notice of their members and weed out those who are only in the club to cause trouble and have nothing better to do than bash the parks and EXPECT the parks to cater to their every request *just* beacuse they think they deserve it.

-Tina

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Gimme speed, height, airtime and plenty of LAUNCH!!!

So, my first enthusiast event ever was SRM 2003. What great timing on my part....

I have to admit, my friend and I were shocked when I discovered the 'two-click' rule. I had never ridden a coaster without the lap bar being within a click or two of my stomach, until a ride on the Raven. I rode in the infamous seat with a slightly loose seat belt and loose lap bar. I felt the negative g's on that ride and was instinctively drawn to 'hold on' when I felt the fifth drop. It seems so ironic looking back on it now.

I can't imagine how someone, ESPECIALLY as a member of a coaster enthusiast group, could be oblivious to the dangers of trying to stand up. It was, and still is, an accident waiting to happen.

I understand Holiday World's position, especially as a business owner. However, to correct the problem, the fix will have to come from BOTH sides. The parks cannot allow this type of behavior from any guests (enthusiasts or not) and the enthusiasts have to police each other and take a stand against this type of action.

Of course, if there are people that are still willing to take such risks, it is just a matter of time. There luck WILL run out....

To be honest, I was hoping there would be a SRM 2004, solely to remember the departed, both as a memorial and a learning experience for us all. Let us not forget....

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Fever

I really enjoy the Simpsons. It's just a shame that I am starting to LOOK like Homer.

Well, I guess It's time to chime in on my opinion......

I must say Bravo to Will and Holiday World as well. I knew things were getting out of hand a couple seasons ago when Will and the gang started noticibly enforcing rules. The rules were then broken more and more (by only a handfull) and that caused a major cracking down. Well, as some defied the rules, it lead to death.

Truth is, even if it wasen't Tamar or even at Holiday World, it would have happend sooner or later.

This accident has come as a blessing towards the industry. It happened at one of the most compasionate parks, it showed that rules are there for a reason, and it was handled differently than any other accident I have seen (even Disney has handled their accident differently then they ever had) . It has shown all of us that safety should be taken seriously and that it proves that it can happen anywhere, anytime, to anyone.

So, I salute Holiday World in this matter. I would rather have an SRM '04 of course, but there are very good reasons not to. I hope others will be educated on this matter and learn to play it safe. I hope as time passes, we can gain trust back with the parks, because we love them so much.

Ride safe, folks.

Let me just say something I said over on r.r-c...

Get something important through your heads: This is not about lap bars. This is not about counting clicks. This is not about what is and isn't safe. It's not really even about standing on coasters.

It's about trust.

Holiday World trusted us, again and again. And as a group, we have violated that trust. Repeatedly. Don't believe that? Then why did they have to post guards along the footpath during the photo walk-back? Why did they have to give a quick lecture on riding safely? It's because we had already proven that we couldn't be trusted.

And then we went and proved it again, this time causing a fatal accident in the process.

From the stories I have heard, Holiday World should probably have started refusing enthusiast events *years* ago. They didn't because they recognize that most people in the group respect them. This year proved that "most people" still isn't "everyone."

Holiday World has decided...with good reason...that we as a group cannot be trusted. That trust is gone. Now it is up to us to try and earn it back.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Is anybody still reading this? Heh.

I was at the '97 SRM, so I, in a way, watched the whole Holiday World thing grow right in front of my eyes. I was there when it felt like a secret....like we were on to something that someday would be huge...like we had made our own discovery, with the Raven, the Koch family, the park, the whole experience. Its a place that I really hold in my heart, and there are few other places in the world that I can really say that about. That being said, finger pointing and blame isn't going to come from me. I know its not an issue of all enthusiats (and especially not just ACErs, or Zombies, or CBuzzers or whatever) and its not just an issue at Holiday World.

Its a problem with the culture as a whole.

Hopefully this will change. The notion that blaming parks or blaming enthusiasts or blaming the internet or blaming the Alveys or blaming my Aunt Edna is beyond me. Its something that we all share together in one way or another as a culture.

That being said, I am all for abiding by the rules. However, the issue that I need my lap bar all the way down to my lap all the time is something that I have a hard time swallowing. PTC, for example, knows exactly how many clicks there has to be...and parks, especially at events, enforce that. Anyone remember URC day after Coastermania in 2000 at PKI? We must have heard 100 times that night "3 clicks, 3 clicks, it has to be 3 clicks, get it to 3 clicks, 3 clicks...." on The Beast. On an average ride I just stick my belly out a little bit, maybe lift my knees up, and I give myself an extra inch or 2. If that really and truly is breaking the rules at a park, I'll just have to plead innocence out of stupidity.

Anyone who didn't see this coming is living in severe denial...

.. and I would expect this kind of decision to spread among parks in the next year or two.. Just my opinion there, I hold NO inside info on any parks plans reguarding events.

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June 11th, 2001 - Gemini 100
VertiGo Rides - 82