Holiday World's Will Koch issues letter to enthusiasts, cancels all 2004 events

I do think the parks want things to be safer and I am glad Holiday World has taken this initiative. It has been some time since I have worked in the parks but we had our eyes open for this type of behavior back in the 80's.

What this comes down to, in my opinion, is an attempt on this park's part of limiting their liability. If a stupid enthusiast actually got hurt at an event some lawyer would likely claim that the park had reasonable cause to know that illegal riding was going on (since it is, afterall, spread all over the internet...not too mention that death at the beginning of the season). As such, the lawyer would claim the park had a duty of care to ensure that the riders were riding safely at all times...but PARTICULARLY during enthusiast events.

I have been riding coasters longer than most of you. Aside from one stupid after hours ride on a coaster where I worked I get in the train, buckle up, and pull down my lapbar. It is that simple.

Wait until you see how future enthusiast events are monitored. I wouldn't be surprised to see park security on platforms on a regular basis.

I'll agree with Will Koch's letter, it has gotten out of hand at times and someone dies. But you people keep bringing up the point of loose lap bars. Loose lap bars WON'T kill you, that's why parks like Holiday World allowed loose lap bars at events, it was still safe. No seatbelt WILL kill you. Holiday World gave enthusiasts loose lap bars at Stark Raven Mad with the trust from enthusiasts that they would keep their seatbelt on. Many enthusiasts went with loose lap bars at the Stark Raven Mad event and they came back, one woman decided to loose the seatbelt and she didnt come back. Loose lap bars are NOT breaking the rules, wearing no seatbelt is breaking the rules.

In the case with the Alveys, they are not breaking rules, they are still wearing seatbelts, and even if they do stuff on the lift hill, they are still smart enough not to do it while the ride is going. It all has to do with common sense, you can have a tight fit lap bar or have a loose lap bar, but you have to wear the seatbelt, it doesnt take a genius to figure that one out.

Tip of the iceberg?
I am betting more parks follow in HW's footsteps and I for one can not blame them.
Thanks to HW for the SRMs and other events that we did get to enjoy over the years till the rotten apples showed up.

Jim Wolgamuth
*** This post was edited by JWolg 9/19/2003 9:26:27 AM ***

I wouldn't be surprised if some new technology entered the coaster market. When you ride Star Tours at WDW or DL you have to wear a seatbelt. A computer monitors all of the belts. If you don't have yours on the attendant will say something to you.

Once it is on it is locked in place. You cannot open it. The ride comes to a stop and then the mechanism releases and you can open the belt.

I first thought this might be too expensive but it may be cheaper than settling lawsuits of those who are injured or die.

Peabody said...

Nice post Sean....how can we help educate those other than leading by example.....I don't know any of the big time offenders....what's a guy like me to do other than set a good example? Just trying to open up some conversation

Jeff,
leading by exapmle is the first, best thing that you can do. However, there are other things that you can do personally. If you see another rider behaving in an unsafe manner, call them on it. If you see a ride-op not checking restraints well, speak up. If you see a whole crew not enforcing safety rules, tell someone at Guest Services.

We as a community need to start treating this behavior like smoking or swearing in front of children. It's just not acceptable. Speak up, let your voice be heard, each time, and every time you see this happening.

Later,
EV
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"Everybody has desperate days of quiet questioning.
Everybody has times when they feel like they don't fit in."
- Color Theory, So Many Ways, 2001

Look's like Will is laying it all out.

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BMCOASTER

bmcoaster@wi.rr.com

Again, Holiday World shows their class. I'm fine not having SRM next year, I'll still be at the park at least once. I'd rather people get the message that stupidity is not very flattering.

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- John
Homepark: CP Home-away-from-homepark: PKI
My Campusfish Blog

Yes, as Matt said, we all share things together as a culture. That is exactly why Holiday World has canceled events in 2004. You have to treat this as a group problem. Within the group, there are problem people. Those have to be weeded out in order for parks to trust the group as a whole again.

I wasn't in any way saying Alvey is the primary source of the problem, just a very blatant one. Selling videos that thumb their noses at park rules can have a very negative effect on the culture that we have. Monkey see, monkey do.

Also, not to single out ACE, but they have a description of the roots of the club on their website. It says: "promote the conservation, appreciation, knowledge and enjoyment of the art of the classic wooden roller coaster and the contemporary steel coaster." This is the reason parks and clubs formed a relationship in the first place. As a result, a trust was formed by parks that this group of people was out to enjoy their rides and promote their coasters. Somewhere along the way, certain people took that description to mean one-click rides, no seat belt rides, on ride picture taking, etc., etc. They may be a minority, but there are enough of them. When trust turns to mistrust, you end up with the situation that is happening now.

That is why I totally agree with Holiday World and Cedar Fair. Not only do I not want to see someone else killed out of stupidity, but I enjoy amusement parks greatly and want to see the industry prosper. The very people that are supposed to help make the industry prosper gave it a black eye, and that is just shameful.

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I'd rather be in my boat with a drink on the rocks,
than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

sros208, can you tell me why the lap bars are there if you can keep them loose and be safe? Seat belts are NOT the primary safety measure. Seat belts on roller coasters do not lock like the automobile seat belts when there are sudden spikes of inertial forces. Lap bars are locked in place for that reason. Seat belts are there for a secondary protection if the lap bars fail. Having a loose lap bar on a coaster can and do cause problems. "Air time" is due to inertia. Lap bars and seat belts are there to protect people of all sizes and shapes from encountering unexpected inertia and forces.

has anyone seen this?
http://www.themeparkreview.com/safety.htm

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Mac Forever.

LOL....nice. Does it mention sneaking cameras on and sellign footage? ;)

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- "I used to be in the audio/visual club, but I was kicked out because of my views on Vietnam........and I was stealing projectors" - Homer Simpson

I've seen it, and don't like it at all. I consider Robb a friend, but I think it's inappropriate to make fun of the issue, especially now.

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--Greg, aka Oat Boy
My page
"The safety word is 'banana'." -- Family Guy

I would like to point out that ACE was addressing some of these problems before any of this happened. Remember the "Unpopular" decision to bar all on ride footage from the video contest? Does not seem so bad now....... Dave A. has it right. It is about trust and when a family invites an entire group into their own home as guests, it doesn't take much thought to know how much they love you. I don't think the love is gone, but the trust sure is. I am hoping over time the trust can be re-established.*** This post was edited by Mike R 9/19/2003 1:52:23 PM ***

While I am not happy about HW's decision, I do understand them being a little gun shy after what happened. If cancelling an event is the only way that would solve this problem, then I'd be for it, But I don't think it is and I really don't think it gets to the root of the problem.

For how do you weed out the bad people if you are no longer holding the event in the first place? And a more troubling issue to me is how to weed out the "new" bad apples that will come along. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Tamar was a new enthusaist. I think this may have even been her first event. From what I have read, it didn't seem like anyone knew her.

I think instead what needs to be done is:

1) Education by the groups themselves...maybe even a responsibilty clause that holds people financialy accountable for their bad actions. (And in the case of minors, then their parents.) I don't think most of the clubs have been proactive enough on this issue.

2) Training of ride ops. Not at HW, but certain parks have ride ops that are as bad if not worse then the problem people. All ride ops should have the same training, and more importantly, the same serious understanding of the issues. If they do not, fire them or move them to another area of the park.

3) Precise targeting. I think people (enthusaist or not) need to be pulled off the rides and removed from the parks the moment they misbehave. On ANY operating day (because these things can happen at anytime). It sounds like HW is making a step in the right direction on this issue. But to not hold events at all for anyone? To me, that's throwing out the baby with the bathwater and is like swatting a fly with a nuclear weapon. And it won't solve the problem of these rotten apples showing up on any other day and creating the same problems.

I'd be curious to know just how many people we are talking about when it comes to these problem people. 10? 100? 200? How many? I've been to plenty of events, and just haven't observed the problems that others have so I am wondering what I am missing. I'm a fairly observant person, and would think I would have noticed something blatent if it were widespread. Since I have not, I can only conclude that it must be either a very small number of people or certain groups that I do not hang out with that are creating these problems.

I wish HW all the best. Hopefully these issues can be put behind us someday and we all can once again enjoy what was a wonderful event.

You miss the point... HW doesn't need us. Their action is the only action that would lead to the discussion we're having now. The "root" of the problem is owned by the community as a whole, and it's the community's responsibility to modify its culture.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Blogs, photo albums - CampusFish
What time does the water show start?

Woodyman, my understanding is that on a PTC train with ratcheting lapbars, the seatbelt IS considered the primary form of restraint.

PTC trains with ratchetingh lapbars and no seatbelts have all been modified this way by the park.

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If I was part of a coaster, I would be an upstop pad on an Arrow Mine Train.
MAGNUM HAD MY BABY!

Jeff, I think you're missing my point as well. HW is certainly entitled to do whatever they want, it's their park. I simply think there were other ways to handle this besides canceling all events next year. There are always more solutions then just one. I get the impression that you think this was the only route available. I repectfully disagree.

And I never said that HW needs us, so I don't know why that's being brandished about again. Please don't include me in with the people that think HW "owes" us, because I do not feel that way.

I do agree with you that this is the only measure that would have created as much discussion as this though. And from that standpoint, it's a good thing. But by HW's own admission, it's a small "minority". So deal with those people, and the problem will be solved. Targeting the entire group, while probably sucessful too, is not the only way, and certainly not the fairest. And does not take into account future generations who will not have been a part of any of this.

Who wants to make a bet with me that we start seeing 'Waivers of Liability' at enthusiast events in the future?

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Fever

I really enjoy the Simpsons. It's just a shame that I am starting to LOOK like Homer.

Isnt there away ride operators can check to see if people are properley restrained? I mean coaster enthusiast that do this are gonna do it whether its a event or not. I wont say I agree with what they are doing. But I do see where they are coming from so im not going to flame them for it. Probly most the people that do this kinda stuff are coaster enthusiast so the chance of this happening at a time when the whole park is all coaster peeps its more likley to happen. I just think that they need to be more vigilant checking restraints to not just canceling club events.

First of all, I should say that I sympathise with Will Koch's position and deplore the conduct of the minority that are tarnishing the reputation of Coaster enthusiasts. However, I'm inclined to agree with Coasterbuf: canceling the events was not the best course of action.

I understand that he wanted to dramatically emphasise his point about the importance of adherence to coaster safety rules and provoke the discussion within the enthusiast communities. I imagine the scenario he envisages is the communities turning against those who trangress from the rules. However, I'd respectfully suggest that social exclusion is not going to bother those who trangress from the rules when they are already risking death/serious by as a result of their misconduct. This action does not deal with the problem directly; it is predominantly penalising those who do behave and telling them what they already know: don't condone or encourage reckless behaviour.

I'm afraid, as 'theRickser' has indicated, it's the ride operators and explicit park policy that constitutes the best defence against the few who break the rules. It is incumbent on individuals to use the restraints properly, but it is, unfortunately, a necessity for the ride operators to physically check that people have used the restraints as intended. If someone is found to be breaking the rules, it is important that they are excluded, without exception and that this is seen to happen by the public. The zero-tolerance rule on those who display disregard for their own safety and that of others strikes me as an entirely appropriate policy, but it should not take a tradegy to bring about its implementation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying that, as a community, we should just leave all the work to the parks and not make our condemnation of those jeopodise safety clear. Even if our view have no effect on the bad behaviour of the minority it is important that we are seen to be explicit in our support for those who enforce the rules and not apathetic towards those who break the rules. I am, however, arguing that the letter, the explicit zero- tolerance policy and the plea for help on the basis of a treasured friendship would have been sufficient to generate the desired effect, without the dissapointment or hard-done-by feelings.

Holiday World may not need us and certainly do not owe us, but by Will Koch's own admission, they do value a good relationship with us, and i'm sure the feeling is mutual. The fact that they have made explicit the threat to that relationship posed by the few is, for the right-thinking members of the coaster community enough to provoke the desired reaction. The cancelations are surplus to requirements and are do nothing to faciliate mending the damage caused by the few.

All the best.
*** This post was edited by 9/19/2003 6:53:50 PM ***