Holiday World's Will Koch issues letter to enthusiasts, cancels all 2004 events

Curious, but how would track down the people giving out this info on the internet? I agree with his generall point, but going as far as banning people who spread info on the internet seems like a bit much, IMO.

------------------
2002/2003
KWTM

MagnumForce,

If riding with that much room felt "very, very well restrained and felt completely safe", what is the point of having them so loose? You just described having the bar pulled down properly.

Do you think the girl who died on Raven realised how much danger she was putting herself in? I suspect not. You never know where the line is until you cross it in my opinion.

You also say "I see a problem with taking off seatbelts and standing up on coasters" - what happens if you have a loose bar and your seatbelt accidentally comes unfastened? It happens.

------------------
Comprehensive European ride and coaster reviews
http://www.ukrollercoasters.co.uk

I'd like to second Lord Gonchar's post.

I hope that this message gets through to the right people.

--Ryan

I think who is being referred to is some widely known enthusiasts who have websites that show some of the things that go on.

I would think this even includes on ride photos and videos which can be found on many well respected sites.

---------------
If I was part of a coaster, I would be an upstop pad on an Arrow Mine Train.
MAGNUM HAD MY BABY!

Marcus, what I am referring to is the simple fact of not being stapled which it seems some poeple all of a sudden feel is the only way to ride.

And unless you have serious issues I would think that anyone who unbuckles there seat belt and stands straight up throughout a ride knows that there is a large chance of not coming back.

Unfortuantely common sense is all too uncommon sometimes.

------------------
If I was part of a coaster, I would be an upstop pad on an Arrow Mine Train.
MAGNUM HAD MY BABY!

Stapling is beyond a tight-fitting restraint. It's not the same thing.

What we need to do is just not be stupid and don't overreact.

------------------
If I was part of a coaster, I would be an upstop pad on an Arrow Mine Train.
MAGNUM HAD MY BABY!

Beeman, I don't think he's necessarily talking about hunting down and finding individual posters on the internet. I think where he was going with this is that if organizations that host events post articles, pictures, etc. that show a blatant violation of park rules, that organization would subsequently be banned from the park.

Example: a CoasterBuzz event ends and people start bragging here about what they got away with, and Jeff posts pictures from the event showing people defeating safety restraints, taking cameras on coasters, etc. This is a scenario where I think that the letter was directed at an organization, not the individual. In this case, there would never be another CB event allowed at the park.

It's about time this started happening. People have been getting away with too much for too long.

------------------
Isn't it nice, sugar and spice, luring disco darlings to a life of vice.

[side note: if anyone did actually act like that at a CB event it would be the last one they'd be allowed to attend... I've been pretty clear about that. -J]

*** This post was edited by Jeff 9/18/2003 7:24:41 PM ***

There's a reason there are LAP BARS on coasters. The General Public definition is that it rests in your lap, not above it as shown above. Myself, when I ride coasters, I want to have a tight fit, and yet I still get a comfy ride, I still feel pockets of "air". If I had a lap bar that high, I would not feel secure in the least. It would give me as much protection as driving without a seatbelt.

------------------
I am not who you think I am.

I disagree with you. I think that the more 'play' your body has, the more chance you have of coming out. Man, if the parks insurance carriers saw some of those pictures, we'd be reminescing about the good old days when it cost $50 to get into a Six Flags park.

Since I don't have access to the restraint engineering specs, and don't know how much 'play' it was designed for, I'd prefer to have the restraints "snug"...not "stapled", just snug.

This isn't an over-reaction.

------------------
"I go out at 3 o' clock for a quart of milk and come home to my son treating his body like an amusement park!" - Estelle Costanza

---

What we need to do is just not be stupid and don't overreact.

---

This is the kind of person who won't admit to doing random acts of disobeying parks rules, especially when you have two warnings right in your face. Don't overreact? Don't worry, I'm not. It's you who needs to review your ideals. It's the "stupid" person who thinks a few inches of free space is "okay", just because it feels 'safe enough'. Better to be overreacting than stupid, don't you agree?

jf said: "if the parks insurance carriers saw some of those pictures, we'd be reminescing about the good old days when it cost $50 to get into a Six Flags park."

Don't worry, I'm sure they seen the pictures, and I'm equally sure that the insuance carriers have had their say....this is *still* a long way from being "over and done with"....hopefully the damage can be repaired, but the tolerance of misconduct MUST end...NOW!
------------------
This sig brought to you by Planet Express, providing intergalactic package delivery for aliens and earthlings alike...

I am with ya Brent! The decision isn't going to affect my plans to visit the park many, many more times. :-)

To hell with the trolls, psychos, and the overzealous enthusiasts who ruin it for the rest of us. Maybe the park's decision will be a wake-up call for these idiots. We can only hope.

Unfortunately there are bad apples in every organization, but the park needed to do what they felt was appropriate at this point.

I am saddened by the decision but I support Paula and the Koch family 100%.

-Tina

<-------looking forward to infinite visits and future Stark Raven Mads. :-)

------------------
Gimme speed, height, airtime and plenty of LAUNCH!!!

http://www.themeparkreview.com/laborday2001/wa/wa3.htm

This is the pic I love the most (scroll down to 5th picture), and I love how these captions have been added so quick after the release of HW's letter. What I find the most remarkable about the added caption is the claim that Elissa is not breaking any park rules! What?? The park might have let the lap bar go out that far up, but I'm sure they never granted permission to blatantly stand up on Cheetah's lift hill, let alone take pictures of it!

I also find the new coaster safety animation to make somewhat of a mockery of the whole situation. Things not to bring on a coaster. Bricks? Darts? Carry-On Friends?How about cameras Robb? Come on, this is completely ridiculous and makes no point to teach anything about coaster safety, only to poke fun of this whole debate.

Congratulations HW for standing up to the overwhelming stupidity and utter lack of consideration of some coaster enthusiasts.

------------------
Coaster Count = 230
*** This post was edited by iucoaster 9/18/2003 6:33:03 PM ***

PTC's recomendation is 3 clicks and the seat belt is considered the primary form of restraint.

Looking at the picture of Elissa again, the lap bar IS a bit higher then I would want it. However I still stand by my statement that an inch or two is not defeating the safety restraints in anyway shape or form. Slouching, picking up your feet, or doing any other thing to gain extra room is a definite no no but leaving a small gap between you and the lapbar that the ride attendants are fully aware of is not a problem.

I didn't want to say this as I thought it may cause problems but it may shed light on a few things.

Pat checked my lapbar on Legend at SRM this year. I pulled it down and counted clicks 1....2....3.....4. She asked "You have three clicks?" I said "Sure do, in fact 4" she smiled pulled up on the lapbar, checked my seatbelt was locked and said "Have a good ride."

Those of you who know me know I am not lying about this and many had similar experiences.

Now perhaps if some parks themselves didn't have that attitude riders would not have that attitude.

The 3 click rides themselves are not the problem, the problem is knowingly defeating the safety systems of the roller coaster.

As for that picture on Cheatah, that is a blatant violation of rules and the kind of stuff I am speaking of. It also is the *website* i was referring to in my previous post.

------------------
If I was part of a coaster, I would be an upstop pad on an Arrow Mine Train.
MAGNUM HAD MY BABY!*** This post was edited by MagnumForce 9/18/2003 6:04:14 PM ***

---

It also includes making libelous claims regarding park policies and procedures.

---

Anyone know what he is referring to?
-R

------------------
-
http://www.bannister.org/coasters/

First off, I'd like to preface this post by saying that I am, in certain scenarios and on certain rides, one of the guilty parties, and though I have sworn to mend my ways for the sake of my safety and for the sake of the community at large, you may feel the need to direct criticism to me for this reason, and I'm fine with that.

Now that I've had my little spiel, it seems awfully ironic to me that the site would post such a lengthy disclaimer upon such an "innocent" picture. There are, in fact, two disclaimers on it: one directly on the picture, and one underneath it. Now, if there really wasn't anything wrong with what they were doing, they certainly shouldn't feel the need to be so wordy in justifying their actions to others.

Cliche, perhaps, but the one who talks the most often has the most to hide. The guilty need no accuser.

------------------
[Nitro Dave -- 145 Laps] [Track Record: 85 and counting...]
Princeton University -- Class of 2007
In the Nation's Service, and in the Service of All Nations

Cedar Fair's warning statement and now Holiday World's cancellation statement. What is it going to take for some enthusiasts to get it through their heads that the parks don't need us and they mean business about unsafe behavior?

Is it going to take Six Flags and Paramount to also issue statements cancelling events for the reality to sink in?

Holiday World did the right thing. Heck, I would have released this statement as soon as the findings of Tamar Fellner were of rider misconduct. They are a business and they don't need this crap.

------------------
Arena football has arrived in the Windy City. Go "Chicago Rush"

I told you that the CF letter wouldn't be the last.

Alvey seems to imply that because a minimum-wage ride op didn't staple a restraint in your lap that standing up for a picture is OK. That's irresponsible and stupid, and I'd be lying if I said his name never came up in conversations with various park/industry people. I'd also be lying if I said that he had nothing to do with the current backlash from the parks. Make no mistake, he's a part of the problem and his and Elissa's actions are factors in the response of the parks.

------------------
Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Blogs, photo albums - CampusFish
What time does the water show start?

< insert dramatic music here - Bum bum bum BUMMMM.......... >

------------------
- "I used to be in the audio/visual club, but I was kicked out because of my views on Vietnam........and I was stealing projectors" - Homer Simpson