Has SF customer service gotten better
GIGAFORCE01 said:
I am making too much of a fuss about too little. It's just when you hear your homepark in the same category as trash mountain you get defensive.
Whoa whoa whoa. You just said it yourself. You've only been to Great Adventure and New England. What makes you think you can start judging a park like Magic Mountain before you've actually been there? "Trash Mountain" from a New Englander who's never been to the California park? Kind of just stepped on your own point didn't you? :)
IMHO it's pretty hard to miss as there is a list hanging in each ticket window.
rollergator said:
even from the SFGAdv/SFNE/SFMM parks that used to DEFINE the bad SF reputation.
I really gotta disagree with lumping SFNE in here. The operations at the park are nowhere near perfect but to lump SFNE with SFGAdv and SFMM just indicates a couple of unlucky bad visits, I think.
SFNE is not operationally the cream of the crop for the chain but it's never been as consistently piss-poor as the perennial under-performers. Even the new management pointed to SFNE as one of the few parks in the chain that were working well and would serve as a model for the rest of the chain.
I'm one of the biggest critics of SFNE being intimately familiar with the inner workings of the park, just not wanting to come off as a fanboy here. But yeah, SFNE just doesn't deserve to be in that bottom tier.
IMHO it's pretty hard to miss as there is a list hanging in each ticket window.
Yes...one would think a list of six closed coasters would be hard to miss. ;)
I've only had my two visits to go on (one last year), and a smattering of what I've read from people I know and trust. Cleanliness, which seems to be a way of life in the rest of New England, wasn't on full display. Add in "worse-than-average" operations, and pretty bland employees (again, the opposite of what I found elsewhere in New England), and it seemed to me that there was more room-for-improvement than I wanted to see. LOVED the rides, I always have a great time *at a park*, any park. SFNE was no exception, and has one of the best ride line-ups going...just thought that the *staffing and operations* were lacking.
Trust me, I enjoy reading the improved reviews as much as anyone. Would like to get up there post-PresCon and enjoy the place even more.
Overall for the CHAIN, remaining hopeful and positive, early reports look promising. Not that we haven't said *that* before.. ;)
*** Edited 5/16/2007 2:13:58 AM UTC by rollergator***
This year the May surprise is park manager message board participations…begging us to check them out AGAIN. How many times can one park chain under multiple ownerships count on the enthusiast community to hype their feigned turnaround attempts?
I may be in the minority among the enthusiast community…but Six Flags deserves ZERO benefit of the doubt based upon their consistent record of piss poor operations. I’m thoroughly convinced that enthusiasts’ unquenchable thirst for thrill rides completely blinds their ability to objectively analyze OPERATIONS. I’ve no problem with somebody liking rides so much that they are willing to accept poor treatment. I used to feel the same. I’m just tired of the bi-monthly enthusiast proclamations of Six Flag’s turnabouts.
I’m aware there are anomalies in the chain (SFFT comes to mind), but the name is mud. There is NEVER a good excuse to have five (six?) rides down at one time absent weather-related cause. The fact that this chain has a park using their name in which the paying guest must go there and hope to walk by a ride when it might be running at any given moment in time…tells me everything I need to know about top management’s commitment to the guest experience.
This situation has endured for YEARS through a couple ownership changes…yet nothing ever changes. Nothing will change here either. Next May…somebody will spot a clean pathway on opening-day and rush to the internet to inform the online community about how Six Flag’s “gets it” NOW! ;)
*** Edited 5/17/2007 12:17:46 AM UTC by Jeffrey R Smith***
Jeffrey R Smith said:
I may be in the minority among the enthusiast community…but Six Flags deserves ZERO benefit of the doubt based upon their consistent record of piss poor operations. I’m aware there are anomalies in the chain (SFFT comes to mind), but the name is mud.
I don't think you represent the minority one bit. More like the vocal majority.
There is NEVER a good excuse to have five (six?) rides down at one time absent weather-related cause. The fact that this chain has a park using their name in which the paying guest must go there and hope to walk by a ride when it might be running at any given moment in time…tells me everything I need to know about top management’s commitment to the guest experience.
Yup. Because the entire direction of the chain can be determined by one trip report based on one day at one park.
This situation has endured for YEARS through a couple ownership changes…yet nothing ever changes.
Actually, SF really only started sucking hard under the Burke leadership. (the last 5 years-ish)
Nothing will change here either. Next May…somebody will spot a clean pathway on opening-day and rush to the internet to inform the online community about how Six Flag’s “gets it” NOW!
From my side of the fence it looks more like people will never give them a chance. May rolls around and the naysayers bring out the "early season is always good" defense. Then when signs of slow, steady change start to show, it becomes a case of "How long are we supoosed to give them - things should have been fixed yesterday". Followed by slight begrudging acceptance disguised as a sarcastic, backhanded compliment like, "Well they couldn't get much worse" or "when your at the bottom there's only one way to go" - In many ways, just as predictable as the cautious optimism.
Nothing will change, indeed. No matter how many positive experiences are mentioned and no matter how many positive TR's get posted, people will always stretch for a reason or excuse to say nothing has changed. :)
----
Is SF still a mess? Of course. But changes have been made. Changes that may not have immediate and visible results, but the kinds of changes that when made now payoff down the line.
Then again, I'm a Shapiro (not a SF) fanboy, so what do I know? ;)
Jeffrey R Smith said:This situation has endured for YEARS through a couple ownership changes…yet nothing ever changes. Nothing will change here either. Next May…somebody will spot a clean pathway on opening-day and rush to the internet to inform the online community about how Six Flag’s “gets it” NOW! ;)
*** Edited 5/17/2007 12:17:46 AM UTC by Jeffrey R Smith***
Or when we reach August and the positive feedback continues to come in, a naysayer will visit SFGadv, see a garbage with trash spilling out and run to the internet with reports of "trash everywhere". Or report back from SFMM that a (now defunct) Flashback is still closed! ;)
Bias always runs on *both* sides of the fence.
We're now at the point where the lines have clearly been drawn. Those that dislike the chain aren't going to suddenly like it again no matter *what* does or doesn't happen, just as those who love the chain are going to overlook certain things.
Let's call things what they are and stop trying to act like one group is more sensible than the other. It's always the usual suspects in both groups. ;)
Anybody with minimal knowledge of amusement parks knows this is NOT an isolated event. This is a consistent pattern for YEARS. It is disingenuous to paint a picture that this is an atypical experience. I expect better from you Gonch...than the old "isolated event" rebuttal.
From my side of the fence it looks more like people will never give them a chance. May rolls around and the naysayers bring out the "early season is always good" defense. Then when signs of slow, steady change start to show, it becomes a case of "How long are we supoosed to give them
Care to comment on that slow and steady change? How might five (six?) coasters down at one time reflect upon this change? Any comment on last years hype about costumed characters (I believe you were all on board with this plan) and how they dissappeared mid-season?
No matter how many positive experiences are mentioned and no matter how many positive TR's get posted, people will always stretch for a reason or excuse to say nothing has changed.
Do we really need to place emphasis on ENTHUSIAST’s OPINIONS…or might we be better served to look at facts? Enthusiasts love thrill rides...and are willing to overlook all sorts of operational deficiencies to quench their thirst...not exactly the makings of objectivity.
Five rides down at one time.
Explain to me…with a straight face…how a park can have FIVE major coasters down at one moment in time…do this consistently…year-after-year…and still fool some into thinking their management really does give a crap? Please don't ignore this explanation. Clarity in this discussion will let us know if you are a true believer OR are arguing for arguments sake.
But changes have been made. Changes that may not have immediate and visible results, but the kinds of changes that when made now payoff down the line.
One of my favorite takes...which says this!
Please ignore our multiple closed rides and concessions, inadequate staffing, false hype in our press releases, etc…BUT do believe that we’ve made certain super-secret changes that you can’t see or experience.
Yes…this argument really has me excited about the big turn-around! ;)
This entire debate has nothing to do with my/your opinion/bias…and everything to do with Six Flag’s operations. I’d love to see them turn it around. But only a fool would expect them to do so based upon past and CURRENT record. They've given us ZERO evidence/fact on which to hang our hat.
Your current Six Flags defense MAY prove correct in the end...but yo base it on nothing more than a hunch or blind-faith that the decision-makers know what they are doing.
In the end none of this matters. Anybody going to SFMM has to hope that a ride might open at the moment they are walking by. To enthusiasts...this may be an acceptable inconvienience to do what they love. The question is whether there are enough people willing to endure such treatment year after year. So far...the strategy is working. They may have a lot of debt and junk-bond stock status...but the doors are open.
*** Edited 5/17/2007 2:40:50 PM UTC by Jeffrey R Smith***
http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/61/616/61629/items/246085/BearStearns_070516%20final.pdf
Lord Gonchar said:
Yup. Because the entire direction of the chain can be determined by one trip report based on one day at one park.
I completely agree with that. But I also agree with Jeffrey. One trip report shouldn't be used to indicate how the entire chain is doing, or even one park in the chain, but it's not like these types of trip reports are few and far between. I would guess that at least 75% of Six Flags trip reports from the past five years would indicate that 25% of a park's major rides are down at any given time. That being the case, I don't think we're at the point where these can be considered isolated incidents.
Actually, SF really only started sucking hard under the Burke leadership. (the last 5 years-ish)
I was just going to say that. Great Adventure was never an exceptional park but it was once a lot better as far as operations go. The quality of the rides has increased but the quality of the overall experience has decreased, and that's because of Burke's so-called leadership.
From my side of the fence it looks more like people will never give them a chance. May rolls around and the naysayers bring out the "early season is always good" defense. Then when signs of slow, steady change start to show, it becomes a case of "How long are we supoosed to give them - things should have been fixed yesterday".
I don't think that's true. It's just a matter of there being a lot of critics out there because negative Six Flags experiences have burned a lot of people in the past. Coaster enthusiasts tend to be passionate about the hobby and take things much more to heart than the general public. If a GP family feels they had a bad day, they'll solve the problem by not going back to the park. If a coaster enthusiast feels they had a bad day at the park, they'll complain about it because their love of the hobby tries to convince them that they should go back, even though their instincts are telling them they'll get burned again. The solution? Go online and complain about it.
And they have every right to do that. I believe that improvements are coming, but if you get peoples' hopes up early on and let them down later, that's almost as bad as not showing any improvement at all. I see it this way- if you can keep the bathrooms clean, the employees smiling and the rides open in May, you obviously cracked the code, so why not keep on doing it throughout the season? It's not as if July rolls around and the managers suddenly forget how to pull it off. Something has to happen to cause a decline halfway through the season, and only once the parks realize how to avoid that will they truly be successful.
A McDonalds can look like the fastest restaurant in the world when there's once customer- it's how they do when they have a line out the door that determines how good they really are.
Once again, there seems to be a lack of balance at work here.
Rollergator, where are you? ;)
JRS said:
It is disingenuous to paint a picture that this is an atypical experience. I expect better from you Gonch...than the old "isolated event" rebuttal.
Nice try at the spin there, but you missed the mark. It has nothing to do with an isolated event and everything to do with current trends. You're taking the one bad TR that's popped up around here recently (from arguably the worst run park in the chain at that) and ignoring all the other (more encouraging) info coming back from visitors to the entire chain and calling it the same old, same old. It doesn't work that way.
Here's a generally negative TR from KBF - I guess Cedar Fair is failing this year too.
Care to comment on that slow and steady change? How might five (six?) coasters down at one time reflect upon this change? Any comment on last years hype about costumed characters (I believe you were all on board with this plan) and how they dissappeared mid-season?
Sure. Infrastructure, staffing, training, budgets - all things that can be changed immediately, but of which the effect has to slowly permeate the culture of the company.
Kraxleridah gave the right response to the six coasters down thing - in previous years they wouldn't have opened at all. This year they did...slow improvement.
As far as the bottom falling out of things last season. New management running on old decisions. Shapiro was driving Burke's car, this year he's driving Shapiro's car. Last year was better than the year before. This year will be better than last. Next year will be better than this one. Change, real change, take time. I'm ok with progress.
Explain to me…with a straight face…how a park can have FIVE major coasters down at one moment in time…do this consistently…year-after-year…and still fool some into thinking their management really does give a crap? Please don't ignore this explanation. Clarity in this discussion will let us know if you are a true believer OR are arguing for arguments sake.
Because the current management hasn't run the parks with multiple rides down year-after-year. Current management ran the parks that way (based on decisions already set in stone by old management) for most of one year. You seem to be of the mindset that Red Zone has been in charge of the company for several years now. Remember, they came in just as the 2006 season began.
This entire debate has nothing to do with my/your opinion/bias…and everything to do with Six Flag’s operations. I’d love to see them turn it around. But only a fool would expect them to do so based upon past and CURRENT record. They've given us ZERO evidence/fact on which to hang our hat.
Really? No evidence of change? I see it everywhere based on the info folks are bringing back from their visits to the various SF parks:
(SFNE) "The park was absolutely packed today, one of the busiest I've ever seen it. But they had their stuff together and were ready for the crowds."
(SFMM) "This was my first trip ever to Magic Mountain, and I must say I was impressed...rode 13 coasters, left the park around 4:30 pm...SFMM definitely ranks up there with CP as far as a park goes...the park was very clean, and a non smoking park is so nice."
(SFGAdv) "I noticed that Rolling thunder was
running the front side, which I haven't seen operating in the last three years...The [El Toro] crew was also doing a really good job with getting the trains out, a big and well needed change from last year...Overall it was a really nice day at the park. They were only open to 6, but we were able to ride just about everything we wanted without rushing around at all."
(SFMM) "Six Flags ended up being WAY better than I thought it was going to be. The park was actually very scenic, the rides were all operating – at least long enough for us to ride them all, and we had a great time overall...I’d definitely go back."
(SFA) "I was very impressed on the way SFA staff was running the park and there were no line jumpers and I didn't see anyone smoking in the ride line."
(SFGAm) "Overall, it was a good opening day for the park."
Those are all from just the past two weeks. I have no reason to believe that those kinds of positive changes and experiences won't continue. Which leads me to:
Your current Six Flags defense MAY prove correct in the end...but you base it on nothing more than a hunch or blind-faith that the decision-makers know what they are doing.
Kinda. I base it on everything I've seen, heard or read about what the chain is doing, about what Shapiro is doing and what people are seeing when they visit the parks. I like to think of it more as an educated guess. :)
The question is whether there are enough people willing to endure such treatment year after year. So far...the strategy is working. They may have a lot of debt and junk-bond stock status...but the doors are open.
Well, that's SF as a business, not SF operations (which you were arguing previously). I feel even more strongly that SF as a business is in good hands.
And I still think people see my enthusiasm/support for the parks now and think of me as some kind of long-time Six Flags fan. Nothing could be further from the truth. Go back a few years and find my scathing TR's, the negative comments. Go back to the earliest podcasts and listen to us just endlessly bash the chain and the guys in charge. Six Flags pre-2006 was a damn joke.
I just really believe Shapiro is on the right track.
Rob Ascough:
I would guess that at least 75% of Six Flags trip reports from the past five years would indicate that 25% of a park's major rides are down at any given time. That being the case, I don't think we're at the point where these can be considered isolated incidents.
Agreed, but I'm not talking about the last five years. That's the old guys. I'm talking about the next five years - the new guys in charge. The TR's for this year have been consistently and overwhelmingly better than in the past.
I see it this way- if you can keep the bathrooms clean, the employees smiling and the rides open in May, you obviously cracked the code, so why not keep on doing it throughout the season?
I explained why I think that happened last year above. But hey, we only have 2 weeks of May left. If it is going to be the same old crap - then it shouldn't be too long before things start to fall off. I guess we'll have to wait and see. :)
DWeaver said:Rollergator, where are you?
Some PEOPLE (the ones that pay me to sit here and ramble on at length) insisted that I attend a meeting this morning - it ran beyond the 2-hour allotment, so I was unable to post before lunch today. Can you believe the NERVE? ;)
All of the above being VERY on-point...I have to say that I get the general *feeling* that Shapiro, et al MIGHT be able to sustain these changes longer into the season. I'm skeptical, and dubious that they'll maintain the positive reviews throughout July and August - based on many many past years' experiences. However, the new guys HAVE shown considerably more "dedication to the cause" when it comes to improving the guest experience. Under the old regime, it really wasn't much more than "lip service" and cursory guest relations training. No one EVER *realistically* expected the changes to make it into the heart of the season.
These guys want to hire better employees, and retain better employees. I've said this, I dunno, about a MILLION times already, but what's once more gonna hurt? Employees, the ones working in direct contact with the guests, THOSE are the key people. It's a hospitality industry (not a rides industry, Kieran!) and those customer service folks are the ones that will determine ultimate success or failure.
Characters, cleanliness, customer service. Keep those in order, the rest will fall into place. Am I reluctant to believe EVERYTHING I hear come from Shapiro? Of course, I'd be a fool not to "consider the source". But I do tend to *lean* towards Gonch's arguments - maybe because I want SF to improve SO much that I'm blinded? OK, I'd cop to that.
One TR never broke the bank, or earned a park another million visitors. But when you take that TR *in its proper context*, and compare it against: other TRs from that individual, other TRs for that park THIS year, other TRs from previous years for the park, and then add in your own personal observations/experiences, I think you can start to see the bigger picture.
As noted, 1-person 1-day CAN NOT tell the whole story. I VERY recently was told that my negative impressions re: SFNE were more negative than the reality of the situation. Here's one of the KEY ingredients though. You have to be willing to be wrong. I always TRY to be (willing to be wrong I mean, obviously I don't try to BE wrong...LOL).
The thing about the 1-person, 1-day thing...well, that's where I probably believe/argue a little closer to Walter Elias Disney than to Gonch. I *feel* that, ON ANY GIVEN DAY, you have a chance to make a life-long customer, or to turn someone into a walking billboard for the other guys. One chance to make a first (and lasting) impression. Make it a positive one! :)
P.S. I'll try to avoid long meetings so I don't miss out on this kind of fun in the future...LOL!
*** Edited 5/17/2007 6:45:31 PM UTC by rollergator***
Very simply…Six Flags does not deserve the benefit of the doubt. I’ll say it once more for clarity…Six Flags does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
This is my opinion of course…but it is based upon YEARS of hands-on trips with Six Flags and observation of other trip reports paralleling my experiences. To paint me as a disgruntled customer based upon one or two isolated events is as disingenuous as disingenuous can be. My OPINION is based upon YEARS of observable events (including last year).
Those who disagree with me are basing their opinions on…what is it again? A few early season months of cleanliness and costumed characters in 2006 and a good first week in 2007…? And I almost forgot…a smattering of positive OPINIONS from enthusiast park-goers (we never had any of those in the past;) ) bursting at the seams to have anybody love their home park. It does not take much to convince some people I guess!
Furthermore…in order to maintain optimism you have to ignore the fact that Shapiro fired the costumed characters mid-2006, you have to find way to deflect blame for five coasters down at one time (it is 2007 by the way…and it is still happening)…etc.
So when you point out that there are some who are unwilling to give Six Flags time… I say…DUH!
Anything can happen I guess…but the safe bet is to assume by August five coasters will be down at SFMM, the Batman Stunt Show will be a one man act, concessions will be closed mid-day, and your three-year-old will go the day without seeing Bugs.
My prediction is made on a solid record of Six Flags futility and years of observable events…including Shapiro’s inability to deliver on last year’s promises. Those disagreeing with me are basing their opinions on… ;)
Stay tuned for August...and we'll see which of us is closer to reality. Anybody want to take bets? :)
P.S. This is not personal at all. Gonch and gator are two of my favorite posters. They just happen to be wrong (gator only a little wrong) on this subject! :)
*** Edited 5/17/2007 10:54:58 PM UTC by Jeffrey R Smith***
You KEEP babbling on about this whole "My OPINION is based upon YEARS of observable events (including last year)" crap that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand and you KNOW it. Your "original intent" or not, it really has no immediate importance to what's being discussed in this topic.
TOPIC READS: "HAS SIX FLAGS CUSTOMER SERVICE GOTTEN BETTER."
From all the accounts I've read of this season so far, and most of last year's in comparison to Burke's reign over the company, I would certainly say they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Truth of the matter is, you are so caught up in all the bad experiences at Six Flags parks under Burke's hand in the past that you blatantly and stubbornly refuse to believe any good change can come about -- even after a complete management change and solid evidence of reform since they have taken over.
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