Has anyone been to GL's Wild Water kingdom this year?

Wednesday, June 16, 2010 4:25 PM

I know everyone has their opinion, but how many 85 year old things can you ride and still enjoy it as they did in 1925?

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 4:34 PM

ffej said:
I know everyone has their opinion, but how many 85 year old things can you ride and still enjoy it as they did in 1925?

Yeah, but is it still 85 years old if it's relocated in the same way that most coasters are? (in that a very small percentage of original material makes it to the new location)

My question is at what point is there no longer a difference between a recreation and a relocation? I think most modern relocations are well past that point.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 4:39 PM

But Gonch, did you still consider it to be 85 years old in its original location?

Do you honestly believe that the Dipper was still operating with more than 10% of its original wood back in 2007?

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 4:40 PM

No, I don't. And that's the next part of the argument.

Quit reading ahead. :)

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:01 PM

Wood is always replaced. Take a look at leap the dipps in Altoona. It is the oldest coaster in the world and it was rebuilt. That is a park that would not exist without that ride. I know more that 10% of Dipper would be re-used. You would have the motor, chain, inner workings and things like that. If I had my preferance, Dipper would stay right where it is at, but I would rather it be re-located than torn down. I know I may concider history more important than some, but that is my opinion.

I always had a thing for history, but never really understood until I got the chance to take my dad to Kennywood and he never told me, but he only really wanted to ride the racer. It reminded him of Euclid Beach's racer. It was the first (of only 2) rides he rode that day. you could see the anticipation in his eyes in line. After the ride you can see that he was feeling like 20 years old again, a happy, carefree time in his life.

One day there may come a time that Millenium is out dated and obsolete and each and every one of us is in the back nine of our lives. Even though the 500ft looping racing standing on your head coaster into the lake with only a lapbelt is new that year, wouldn't you still like a ride on millie? Wouldn't you say hey, I loved that ride. can't we save it?

don't you come out and say they could save all the material from millie because we all know she has a non-original catch car!!!

Last edited by ffej, Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:08 PM
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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:21 PM

Sorry, Gonch. I'll try to fall behind a bit. ;)

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:30 PM

ffej said:
I know I may concider history more important than some, but that is my opinion.

You're still not getting the jist of what I'm saying.

I'm not arguing against saving history or saying I wouldn't care about some ride in the future. (that's a whole different argument :) )

What I am asking is that when everyone gets their panties in a bunch over saving a ride, what are they really wonking about?

You want history preserved. But what is someone really preserving when they say "save this coaster?"

I understand preservation in the sense of operating it in it's current location. That's preservation to some degree - although it will never be the same, nothing is.

As unrealistic as that may be, I can at least understand it.

But relocation? The way it's done with coasters, I'm sorry, it's not preservation of any physical material and it's not even really preservation of an experience. It's preservation of a coaster layout...and that can easily be done at any time by anyone wishing to make an exact replica of any given coaster.

Big Dipper could rot into a pile of mush that is then burned and finally peed on and you could still "save" the ride in the same sense that coasters are saved when they're relocated.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:40 PM

I do understand what you are saying. I have heard different percentages of what can be saved off of Dipper on relocation of anywhere from 25-60 percent usable. don't forget that Dipper was rebuilt in the 80's with treated wood that holds up alot better than wood from the 20's. I still think the number 1 option is to keep it in place and build something around it preferably with the carousel from gl ( it has been made very clear to me that the carousel in not available for sale) . I would really want it to stay in place, but nobody has come up with a feesable plan to purchase the land around it. Either way it is possible.

If it was more like 60% salvagable, would it make it better?

Last edited by ffej, Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:45 PM
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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:51 PM

I don't know. That's what I'm asking.

At what point is a relocation really just a recreation with a certain amount of symbolic pageantry thrown on top to make people feel warm and fuzzy?

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:52 PM

I hated that ride. I want the park back, but we're not going to get into that.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:57 PM

I don't know. I totally understand. I guess my way of thinking is that some is better than none.

during my experiance in life I have found that mor most people, perception is reality. How many people riding little dipper know that only a small amount of wood was reused to build it? Only the avid rollercoaster nuts like you and I would notice a difference! I really enjoyed dipper and have enjoyed it with my father and he did with his father. I want to share that with my son. even if it is only a part of the ride. I would like to look at my son's face when we get to the top of the hill and take a left insted of going straight down.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:59 PM

Mr. Ninja said:
I hated that ride. I want the park back, but we're not going to get into that.

Hate is such a strong word :) You probably don't even like mean streak! (joking) You never know if anything can or can't happen. until the shopping center and condos pop up on that land, anything is possible!! no matter how far fetched, it is possible.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:16 PM

Even though my heart wishes otherwise, in my head I know that Big Dipper is already gone.

Gonch is right, dammit. If Big Dipper went somewhere else, it wouldn't be a relocation, it would be a recreation. Hell, even if it were reopened where it stands, enough years have already passed that BD would require significant work to get it operational. And that ain't ever gonna happen. The economic, political and cultural elements that would need to align to make it a reality simply aren't materializing. And as time progresses, the ride continues to rot and the prospects fade.

I loved BD. It was a treasure and a delight to ride and reride. Every time, I thought about how I was essentially riding a pre-Depression roller coaster. Minus a few safety modifications enacted over the years, my experience was pretty much exactly the same as a flapper would have received 80 years prior. Riding Dipper was almost literally riding back into time.

And it wasn't merely a nostalgia ride. BD could deliver some forceful drops, especially in the back half of the train, and the air time on the return was amazing. I'm glad my daughter and I got to ride it for a couple years before it was abandoned; I'll always cherish those memories.

But it's gone. The upright sticks and boards still to be seen are only an illusion. Like many other woodies that have died slow, ignoble deaths, what remains is only a ghost of its former self, a standing corpse.

Bye, Dipper.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:26 PM

I have to disagree with you Ensign, I know you loved the park.I know for a fact that it is not gone yet. I have been very close to the situation and if it was re-opened where it stands, it would not take as much as you think. Keep in mind that it has been sitting, that means not running any trains on it to wear it that way. It is made of treated wood and is made for our winters.yea there would have to be some money spent on it, but not as much as you think. The coaster is not the reason nobody has bought it, The reason is the land situation. I know it is easier to just let it go with no hope, but it is not time for that yet. The coaster is strong and ready to give more rides. So if it comes down, you can say hey Ffej, I TOLD YOU SO!!. but not yet. there really is hope.

Last edited by ffej, Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:27 PM
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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:32 PM

I certainly wouldn't be the one saying that, I can guarantee. And if you end up being right, you can tell me those words repeatedly, and I'll smile every time.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:22 PM

ffej said:
History. That is why not build new. It has something that nothing new can have. It was built and designed by one of the most important people ever in the coaster world.

That's where I just can't agree. Along the lines of what I think Gonch is after, the importance isn't the object currently rotting, it's essentially the intellectual property (for lack of a better match to current parlance) that's important. I mean, if you want to save a brake handle or something, so be it, but honestly there's almost no value in the actual materials of the current object.

I'd also argue that, in the relative importance of historical artifacts, a roller coaster just doesn't matter much. There's nothing particularly interesting or unique about the craftsmanship of the original object, especially given its perpetual replacement. It's not like a carousel or something, where an artist crafted the horses and the creepy faces around the outside.

why not have a large classic area with classic rides to capture that audience. kennywood's attendance went up pretty good after gl closed.

That's nothing but geography (assuming the anecdote is even true in the first place). That Kennywood has old stuff is irrelevant to its success. If they could simply rely on that, there would be no Phantom's Revenge or Sky Rocket. Old stuff is only a draw for old people, or the niches that understand its significance.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:51 PM

Jeff said:

That's nothing but geography (assuming the anecdote is even true in the first place). That Kennywood has old stuff is irrelevant to its success. If they could simply rely on that, there would be no Phantom's Revenge or Sky Rocket. Old stuff is only a draw for old people, or the niches that understand its significance.

We can agree to disagree on the history of a coaster. I don't want to beat a dead horse. I respect your opinions even though they differ from mine. However. Cedar point is full of niches. you have the young thrill riders, the show goers, the family niche as well. Why not ad, as you say, old people. Funny think is that I don't believe I am old at 36, but I would enjoy a classic area of the park. Cedar point would cover all niches you could think of( except dark rides). It would be kinda like walmart amusement park. something for everyone. It is a big enough place that all niches could enjoy!

Last edited by ffej, Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:51 PM
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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:56 PM

Ensign Smith said:
I certainly wouldn't be the one saying that, I can guarantee. And if you end up being right, you can tell me those words repeatedly, and I'll smile every time.

You and I are very similar Ensign. We would both like the same thing. I just have to believe that Dipper is still up for some reason, and I will try to do anything I can to save it. Until it is down, I will be persistent and stubborn until I can't anymore.

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:15 AM

Some clown broke into the park and posted pictures of the current state of the park.

http://coasterfusion.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?9221.0#post_9222

And no, it was not me.

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:25 AM

I never understood the GL Dipper love. I never rode it until SF bought the park, so maybe it has something to do with neglect, or whatever. It was just so boring to me. I rode it once per visit, and I was over it.

It would be pretty cool to make that area into an outlet mall, and resurrect Big Dipper to run through it. I feel that way not because I like the ride (because I don't), but that I like that the ride has some historical value of some kind.

And a dry rides area of WWK would be a fantastic break from the water slides and attractions. Great idea!

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