getting tired of line jumpers

Jeff, where are you putting that 200lbs?? :)

I'm 5'8" and a 34 (or big 32) and I'm 148lbs...

On topic:

To those who say qbots or whatever aren't cutting... it *is* cutting. You are entering a queue and getting on the ride earlier than someone else who waited longer in their queue. You are stepping in front of them, at some point in the system. It is legal, park-sanctioned (and even encouraged, for a small fee) cutting, and something a lot of parks have implemented... but it's still cutting ;) Argue for or against it all you want, but it seems silly to argue the definition itself. Even Disney's free speedpass thing is cutting - you just get to do it for free, and just about everyone else who got there early enough is doing it as well. End result is everyone gets to cut at least few times, and all the lines move a little bit slower as a result.

Fortunately, most of the parks near me (KI, CP, HW, IB) don't fool with qbot type systems... yet.

I really feel we need to separate virtual queuing from paid express passes... for example... Universal Orlando has "Universal Express" which is a paid ticket to ride program where you get one ride on each attraction without waiting. Disney's FastPass is an actual bona fide "virtual queue" where you stand in line, without actually standing in line. There is a difference.. a huge difference for the sake of this argument.

Universal's Express pass, you don't have any wait time aside from buying the pass...

Disney's FastPass, you RESERVE a place in line... a limited number of spaces are allowed, and you can only have a certain number of space reserved at a time.

---

CPJ said:
I really feel we need to separate virtual queuing from paid express passes... There is a difference.. a huge difference for the sake of this argument.

---

Here's your gold star. :)

Well said. There is a difference and around here we tend to use the terms interchangably when they are quite different.

The only difference between the systems are the restrictions - you're still stepping in front of people. I used a fastpass to ride space mountain at Disney. I walked along a secondary path and passed (read: cut in front of) hundreds of people in the main queue.
Calling it a 'virtual queue' is just silly. While I was supposedly standing in line for Space Mountain, I was actually riding the haunted mansion. You cannot physically have your body in two lines at once, therefore any little gadget that allows you to 'save a spot in line' and step in front of people in the line, regardless of what they call it, is a cutting pass.

Disney's example is simply more restricted than a gold bot - you can only use it once per ride and only at a certain time of day designated when you pick it up (if I remember their system correctly). At that designated time, you can step to the front of the queue of that particular ride, cutting in front of the rest of the line.

I'm pretty sure the whole 'virtual queue' idea was dreamed up by park marketing folks who knew the idea of 'pay to cut' would torque off a lot of guests, so they devised this smoke and mirror 'be in two places at once!' spiel to help it go down easier. Even Disneys' seems geared more towards making sure folks get rides on the attractions they value most (they can be sure to grab speedpasses for those particular rides).

The bottom line is pretty straightforward: no amount of 'virtual queue' smoke and mirrors will put more butts in seats over the course of a day - only increased capacity will do that. There are a limited number of cycles/day for every ride, and virtual queues let the bot holders overall get more of these rides, hence the cutting designation. You ride more, everyone else waits a bit more. A person who grabs some speedpasses at Disney rides more than one who does not. Same for qbots, goldbots, whatever.

Personally, I'm not really opposed to the availability of q-bots. I do think we have it pretty good around here (cincy) - no local parks have them (good for us), but I would probably grab one if I was hitting a distant sixflags park just to be sure I could ride as much as I could in the time I had.

---

metallik said:
Calling it a 'virtual queue' is just silly. While I was supposedly standing in line for Space Mountain, I was actually riding the haunted mansion.

---

Well, I do believe that isn't how the system was originally envisioned. IIRC, Disney's idea was to keep people out of long lines and on the midways visiting gift shops, buying souvenirs or food and drink. Spending money.

Perhaps a little naive in hindsight.

---

You cannot physically have your body in two lines at once...

---

Hence the term Virtual Queue. ;)

---

Disney's example is simply more restricted than a gold bot - you can only use it once per ride and only at a certain time of day designated when you pick it up (if I remember their system correctly). At that designated time, you can step to the front of the queue of that particular ride...

The bottom line is pretty straightforward: no amount of 'virtual queue' smoke and mirrors will put more butts in seats over the course of a day - only increased capacity will do that. There are a limited number of cycles/day for every ride, and virtual queues let the bot holders overall get more of these rides, hence the cutting designation.

---

Nah, it's just a redistribution of who the available seats go to. You're right, there's a finite number of riders able to get on any ride in any given day. What a VQ system does is allow a certain number of those seats to go to people chosen in another way other than standing in line. The method of choosing other people varies (free to anyone first come, first served; as a perk to people who buy something else, like resort guests; for a fee to anyone will to pay; for a fee in limited numbers, first come first served, etc)

All it's doing is taking something generally attributed to 'luck' and controlling it to whatever degree.

Is it fair that you happen to hit a ride right at a slow time and are able to get on in just 5 minutes and get in line three times (taking three of the day's available seats in return for 15 minutes 'payment) when I happen across it at a different time and have to wait 15 minutes for one ride (taking one of the day's available seats for a 15 minute 'payment')? In theory it's just as 'unfair' that chance is what determines our 'payment' for a ride - if you want it to be totally fair then we should all wait the same amount of time for any given ride, but it doesn't work that way. (meant partially tongue-in-cheek...kinda :) )

And for us enthusiasts who tend to know the parks and talk among each other, we can exploit the various park setups, traffic patterns, use hints and tips and all of that to get maximum rides with minimum wait. It's not cheating anyone it's being smart with your time. It's taking as much control of the situation as possible to make sure we do as much as we can with our valuable time at the park.

All the VQ or priority access system does is give me more control so I can make the most of my valuable time at the park.

Whether it is cutting or not is not even an issue. It's about time management more than anything. The person with the VQ has a reservation to ride. The people in line don't.

The clueless masses leave it to luck, the smarter among us play the odds and use what we know to put those odds in our favor, those of us that VQ simply pay to make sure we get the most out of our time and guarantee a seat on a ride.

Like I said, you're right. There's only a set number of seats available for any ride each day. The park distributes them how they see fit. Guests obtain them how they see fit (which standby line to get into to wait for an available seat, when to go to a certain line to wait for an available seat, buying a spot on a ride, being given a spot on a ride, whatever).

Consider VQ a reservation vs the regular line's stand-by availability because that's exactly what it is. I make reservations for flights, hotels or busy restaraunts. I buy my seat in advance for concerts, sporting events and the movie theatre. Some people choose to stand-by or just show up and hope for the best.

I choose to guarantee my seat on rides at the amusement park too. Some people choose to stand-by or show up and hope for the best. :)

I think qbot is fair. I think its fair because you are paying for it. The regular qbot say at gadv the wait time is 3 hours the regular qbot will make you wait 3 hours.

The gold qbot is insanely expensive . ITs fair because four people its like $200 dollars.

I actually think fastpass at disney is not as fair because if you dont go to park openings most of the rides run out of fastpasses by 1pm (well most of the time).

Now people might say yeah but disneys is free but disneys you have to be at the parks opening basically to get one and six flags you have to pay. So both of them arent really open to EVERYBODY.

Gonch: I pretty much agree with your view on the bots and the distribution of seats - like I said, I'm not opposed to the bots, just the "VQ spiel" :) I look past the marketing and see the system for what it is: a way to get prioritized boarding to some folks, whether it's a free perk or an upcharge. Only difference in the systems is how costly and how restricted... a qbot gold has few (any?) restrictions and is very expensive.. qbot has some restrictions and is less expensive.. speedpass has many restrictions and is free. Makes sense to me.

Majortom: it is true that you have to be early to get speedpasses, but isn't that the same for the Six Flags bots? I.E. don't they only sell a limited amount per day, and if you're too late you're SOL? Or do they rarely run out? The closest sixflags to me is SFKK and nothing in that park is worth a qbot :)

Sometimes on really busy days at great adventure the regular ones sell out bu usually thats not a common thing from what i have seen.

The problem is that the concept of paid, preferred ride seating is un-American. Bear with me.

Once upon a time, we were a fairly egalitarian society. No lords, no dukes, no kings. There was always the idea that every fellow had the same chance as the next to get ahead in this world. Yes, it was always illusion, but there was more substance behind that illusion than in most other countries.

And even though times have changed and we now have a more stratified society where the rich get richer and the poor increasingly do without, that idea persists: that somehow we are all on the same level with each other, or at least we ought to be. And paid, preferred ride seating rubs perpendicularly to that grain. Just as with first class tickets on airliners or corporate suites at ballparks, there is a ticklish sense of these things being somehow, vaguely wrong.

I've experienced it, and I've seen it in others. Even as an in-the-know enthusiast, I've felt my hackles raise when some high spending group laughs and cackles its way past the rest of us 'commoners' languishing in an hour long queue. Yes, I understand how the system works. And I've taken advantage of it myself, from time to time. But that doesn't make it any less antithetical to our peculiarly American mindset.

It is absolutely American, Ensign Smith... pure capitalism.

It has nothing to do with class... or lords or dukes or kings. No one, regardless of their social status, is denied the chance. A well off person who just happens to be down on their luck may not be able to afford it, while a "poor" person who just happened to save up enough money would be.

*** Edited 7/8/2008 4:28:46 PM UTC by SLFAKE***

^^ That sounds more like communism than Americanism. Not saying communism is neccesarily bad...

Does 'All men are created equal' sound like communism?

Did you know that once upon a time, any American citizen could go up to the White House (and before that, the President's House in Philadelphia) and drop in on the President? For Andrew Jackson's inauguration, basically the entire populace of Washington D.C. descended en masse on the White House grounds for the mother of all parties. Talk about your riff-raff.

Maybe I'm just getting older, but I remember a time when words like that were more than mere lip service.

I'm not denigrating q-bots or virtual queues or whatever the heck else we want to call them. I'm just saying there is a reason people -- Americans, specifically -- don't like them, and it is a very deep-grained one with a historical basis.

---

Ensign Smith said:
Does 'All men are created equal' sound like communism?

---

No, but there's great irony in the fact that it was said by slave owners.

---

Maybe I'm just getting older, but I remember a time when words like that were more than mere lip service.

---

I was born in the 1970's and I think I missed it by a long shot. In fact, I'm not sure it really existed much beyond the history books.

Yeah, well, I was born in the sixties! I can remember Woodie Guthrie singing about how this land is your land, this land is my land.

Okay, I don't really remember him singing in person, but I know I saw it on tv once. I think it was PBS. Probably a Ken Burns documentary.

Well, equal or not, some folks get lucky...and some folks do more with their luck than others.

People create their own luck.

Luck is the residue of design.

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
--Seneca, mid 1st century AD

How true Brian. One of these days, I will make it! I will get back on the road driving.!

"And sometimes luck is just luck: good, bad, or otherwise." -- Ensign Smith, early 21st century CE

I can't think of a single situation where luck is something that just happens.

Luck is just a series of events or situations or circumstances or choices that plays out. If it works in our favor we call it good luck. If it works against us we call it bad luck.