getting tired of line jumpers

Gonch:

Except that your analogies aren't very comparable. A popular restaurant will fill almost all their seats via reservations, whereas amusement parks fill the vast, vast majority of their seats via queues. A better analogy would be a nightclub, with the ubiquitous queue stretching from the door. If you step in front of people in line.. hey, guess what: cutting.

Movie theater is an even worse analogy, as ALL seats are filled via tickets, which are sold days in advance. Nothing comparable with ride queues.

I already stated that Disney's system was a pass for cutting at a scheduled time. If you want to call it a reservation, that's fine, but since the main method of filling seats *by far* is the standard queue, it falls to reason that a 'reservation system' in amusement parks allows folks to cut in the queue.

One last example: Myself, and 'person B' visit Disney. Upon entering, I pick up a fastpass for SM; he does not. We proceed to ride (the same) multiple rides through the day. When the SM fastpass time arrives, we both approach the station. I follow the fastpass queue while person B pulls the classic 'rejoin others' cut in the standard queue. We wind up riding the same train.

My cut was legal and sanctioned; his was not. No other differences whatsoever. We both cut in line at SM and got a no-wait ride; the only difference was the method of cutting.

That's it folks. If you still disagree, I tip my hat to your tenaciousness, while subtly smirking at your stubbornness ;)

Edit: one last thing, to expand on the nightclub analogy. Let's say a few guys DO have a reservation and walk past the line and up to the door and get in. The people in the queue who don't know about the reservation (and many who DO know) are all going to be grumbling at the line cutters. They don't care about the reservation, they just see people getting in ahead of them. The reservation is WHY the guys got to cut, but the ACTION itself is cutting. At least that's how most people would view it. Now, if reservation systems at parks eventually become the standard method of assigning seats, people won't consider it cutting because "that's the way it's done now" - just like restaurants.

Ok, done now :) *** Edited 7/9/2008 4:04:56 AM UTC by metallik***

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metallik said:
Except that your analogies aren't very comparable. A popular restaurant will fill almost all their seats via reservations, whereas amusement parks fill the vast, vast majority of their seats via queues.

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And that's the point. Amusement parks are changing. They're changing the way the fill the seats. It's not scary or bad, it's change. They now take reservations for available seats. The ratio of riders by reservations to rides from stand-by doesn't make an ounce of difference in the validity of the reservation.

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I already stated that Disney's system was a pass for cutting at a scheduled time. If you want to call it a reservation, that's fine, but since the main method of filling seats *by far* is the standard queue, it falls to reason that a 'reservation system' in amusement parks allows folks to cut in the queue.

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Wow! Just wow, dude. I'm still not sure how changing the method for filling seats makes anything different. I'm not "in the know" like some people but I believe I remember someone saying that as much as 75% of a ride's capacity can be given to Fast Pass at Disney.

If you keep wanting to play on the assumption that it's a majority rules sort of thing, then there are rides out there that give up more seats to those with reservations than folks who stand-by for a seat. But I still don't understand how the ratio of distribution makes a bit of difference.

Fast Pass Design Theory - When Fastpass is installed on the attraction, a certain number of those seats (in the theatre, on the ride vehicles, etc.) are set aside. The remainder are made available on a "stand-by" basis to other park guests.

Doesn't matter what the ratio. A certain number of seats are given away to reservations and the rest are filled from the queue. Last time I checked having a reservation isn't cheating - it's planning in advance.

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That's it folks. If you still disagree, I tip my hat to your tenaciousness, while subtly smirking at your stubbornness

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Ditto. :)

Hm. I never said it was "cheating" .. is this why we're arguing? :) I said it was cutting. I do not intend a negative connotation to that, merely describing the action. Cutting against the rules is bad, cutting according to the rules is not. A reservation let you cut in the line. Not good or bad, just is. And while parks are changing, we're just at the baby steps, so deviations from the norm now would still be cutting IMHO.

Perhaps in 10 years, we'll plan our entire trip online and pay a customized ticket price based on our selections. Go to the park, swipe our pass/tickets at each ride at the scheduled time and get on with no wait. The old queues would be reduced to standby riders filling gaps when scheduled riders didn't show.

If they can get unexpected downtime to workable levels, this might be the future. BTW I claim prior art if it is :)

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metallik said:
Perhaps in 10 years, we'll plan our entire trip online and pay a customized ticket price based on our selections. Go to the park, swipe our pass/tickets at each ride at the scheduled time and get on with no wait. The old queues would be reduced to standby riders filling gaps when scheduled riders didn't show.

If they can get unexpected downtime to workable levels, this might be the future. BTW I claim prior art if it is :)

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Except that you'll find dozens of posts by me around here from over the years predicting the exact same thing. :)

Great minds?

But on to business:

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A reservation let you cut in the line. Not good or bad, just is. And while parks are changing, we're just at the baby steps, so deviations from the norm now would still be cutting IMHO.

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Except that the reservation isn't letting you cut in line. The line is letting you fill in seats that haven't been reserved.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. From my POV, not a thing has changed.

Waiting in the queue is nothing more than a guarantee to fill the next available empty seat in the order you arrived to the queue.

That's what it always was and that's what it still is.

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RatherGoodBear said:
...it could be argued that people who spend more money feel entitled to special treatment.

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Well if you're paying for special treatment, then aren't you entitled to it? That's generally how commerce works, you pay for something, you get it.

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CPJ said:
I guess its good that most people don't understand how FastPass works and what a reservation is...

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Yeah... I don't get that. Reservations aren't some technological breakthrough of this decade. Gonch's examples of restaurants and various things you buy tickets for sure make sense to me.

You need to find a day job, man.

I don't like seeing you here on the night shift. ;)

I've found another home... no I'm not alone...

Please dont tell me that singing will be included in the next podcast...;)
lata, jeremy

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Brian Noble said:

The Secret is totally differnt from the Gonch View. The Secret is that if you just think "I'm giong to be rich" enough, then by golly, you'll be rich.

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"The Secret" implies that you'll make the right choices toward your goal subconsciously if you already know and desire your outcome. That's how it's so similar to Gonch's mindset. "The Secret" just explains what your attitude should be before putting Gonch's theory into action.

...IMHO. YMMV. WTF. LOL.

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Lord Gonchar said:

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metallik said:They're changing the way the fill the seats. It's not scary or bad, it's change.

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That's the point, G...change *is* scary. ;)

Seriously though, change happens...every day. Prepare for it and "ride the wave" into the future, or cower in fear and suffer the consequences as the changes crash like so many waves over your head. Sad or not, those really ARE your options. Welcome to the future - it's now! :)
*** Edited 7/9/2008 3:23:43 PM UTC by rollergator***

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On luck:

Okay, I think I see the Gonch POV. Technically (above the quantum level), nothing is random, so technically everything that happens to you is a result of a decision that you made. Sure. But everything has a layer or unpredictabillity to it (chaos theory) so you certainly can't say that you get what you deserve/prepared for/decided.

On FastPass, if there are 10 rides available a day and 10 people in the park, without fastpass everyone would get 1 ride. With Fastpass, one person could get 2 rides and another would get 0. It's more like making a reservation for a table and then sitting at a table while you wait for your reservation to come in.

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ApolloAndy said:
On FastPass, if there are 10 rides available a day and 10 people in the park, without fastpass everyone would get 1 ride. With Fastpass, one person could get 2 rides and another would get 0. It's more like making a reservation for a table and then sitting at a table while you wait for your reservation to come in.

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I think it's more like someone having a dinner reservation, but also showing up for lunch. By the time the second person shows, he's not getting in. But for the sake of fun, let's get rid of FastPass:

Without it there's 10 rides available a day and 10 people in the park. The first person could get off the ride and get back in line before another ever got to the ride. That first person got 2 rides and the other got 0.

So let's bring FastPass back now.

As a FastPass holder, yes, you are allowed to make a reservation and also wait in the stand-by line. Still don't really see the issue.

What if there's a hot new video game system coming out? People are going to be lining up overnight to get it. I'm covered because I pre-payed for mine, but decided after the fact that I'd like a second one to give as a gift. I go line up with the masses. I pick up two systems - the one I reserved and the one I waited for. As a result someone else wasn't able to get one.

Or what if I have a reservation for 8:00 at a whatever establishment (choose anywhere that takes reservations or presells or whatever but also has a line). While people are waiting and hour to get in, I'm off somewhere else doing other things.

Perhaps a show before dinner. Perhaps shopping before a movie. It's not unlike being in two places at once (or two lines at once at a park). My place is held at the resaraunt while I enjoy the theatre. My place is held at the theatre while I shop elsewhere. But all those poor saps who didn't makes reservations are forced to just stand there and wait for an opening.

I guess I don't really have a new point. Just trying to throw some different analogies out there.

Oh I don't have a problem with it at all.

I'm just saying that Fast Pass is doing more than just allowing you the same number of rides without standing in line. It's definitely allowing you more rides than you would normally be able to get. And those rides are at the cost of non-Fast Pass riders.

Yeah, but there's no guarantee that anyone will be able to ride any given ride on any give day to begin with. Or that everyone will have the same wait or get the same number of rides for waiting the same amount of time.

I know those against keep pointing to how 'unfair' it is, but if you really think about it, parks weren't real fair to begin with. It seemed fair because it just all felt random or like it was left up to 'luck' - but everyone reading this knows that isn't true and you could expoit the system and get maximum rides by being smart about when you hit rides or with the path you use to go around the park.

This just makes it more obvious that not everybody is getting the same day for the admission price.

I don't see much difference between showing up at opening and hitting the right rides to get short waits and re-rides and then going against general traffic patterns to keep find short waits and getting the most rides in a day at the cost of the average visitor who does what the masses do and just making reservations to maximize my day at the cost of those who don't.

No matter how you slice it, every seat I fill is one that someone else can't.

So just stop going to parks. :-P

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Jeff said:Well if you're paying for special treatment, then aren't you entitled to it? That's generally how commerce works, you pay for something, you get it.

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Exactly. I work at a job that doesn't pay well. I saved my money up specifically to purchase a Cedar Fair platinum pass, which allows me to enter Cedar Point an hour before the general public. I paid $150 of my hard earned money for that pass, I get unlimited admission and free parking too. I get up at 4:30 am and drive for over 3 hours to get there when the gates open. If some of you still want to be bitterly jealous and refer to this as line cutting, then so be it.. here's an idea.. how about scraping a few dollars together so you can LEGALLY enjoy the benefits an amusement park has to offer? I'm honest and I wait my turn in line instead of shoving my greedy butt through a line of people who have been PATIENTLY WAITING.
There is a difference between park perks and line jumping. Stop trying to blur the line. Either you pay for it and you get the perks, or you act like the lines are Olympic hurdles and risk getting thrown out of the park for being stupid.

Gonch, I am totally on board with you.

At one point the argument was: "If you haven't been to the park since fastpass started, they took away more of your seats without telling you and are charging you the same price."

Eight years later, I don't think that's a valid argument.

I don't either because the number of seats you got in a day was never a fixed number. It was based on countless variables and was certainly not 'fair' in any way.

Pay-per-ride parks give more seats to people who pay more. Not much different than what these current systems do - give more seats to people who pay more.

How true Gonch. So, if I understand or possibly mistunderstand, you're saying Fastpass (Q-bots or any sort of virtual system) is essentially an updated pay-per-ride system?

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Lord Gonchar said:
Pay-per-ride parks give more seats to people who pay more. Not much different than what these current systems do - give more seats to people who pay more.

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This is true, but they still have to wait just as long as everyone else to ride no matter how many tickets they buy.