getting tired of line jumpers
A decade ago, perfectly abled folks would rent wheelchairs at Disney World to cut the line. The response? Disney and Universal widened the queues -- when possible -- so a party with a wheelchair can roll along with everybody else. Some parks without that luxury simply tell the wheelchair rider to come back at a set time that equals the length of the current queue.
And I know that many of you hate the FlashPass, Universal Express, Qbot, systems, but one welcome byproduct is that it positions an employee IN the queue. I saw more line cutting in Legoland and Knott's than I did at Magic Mountain last week, and I think the lack of a FlashPass type of system that would have made it financially feasible to place an attendant in the line is part of the reason for that. That handstamp Freeway plan that Cedar Point had a few years ago was a joke, but since the thread was triggered by queue cutting at the Point, I would suggest that the line cutting has gotten worse there since the plan was disabled.
Once a park has a financial interest in selling or providing a queue-shortening system, it becomes that much more essential to police the cutters.
LostKause said:
Exactly what I am talking about. With Q-Bot and other pay-to-cut schemes, The parks offer line jumping as a perk.
Not quite how I see it. The park offers "virtual queuing" for those who are willing to pay for it. No matter how much you want to rant, it isn't line jumping. It's a perk for those guests who pay. The only problem that I see with this system is that MORE of your busy parks don't offer it.
mulfdog said:
ErinGoBraugh said:
muffdog:I've decided to stop going to SFA because of how disrespectful the park-goers are.
So is SFA responsible for the behavior of its guests?
Cropsey said:Since the original Six Flags concept was pretty much lifted from Disneyland, someone might want to remind SFA of their in-name only corporate heritage roots..becuse they're going full circle now.
Are you saying that there isn't line jumping or problems at Disneyland? The worst line jumping I've ever seen was at Disneyland. Families and even employees not feeling the need to wait like everyone else.
Yes, SFA is responsible for providing a safe and comfortable park experience. If your whole business plan is about bringing families in to turn the company around, making a family friendly park would be an obvious requirement to execute said plan.
There's always going to be isolated incidents at any park, that's the nature of dealing with large groups of people. But SFA in particular has a nasty rep Erin isn't the first person I've heard saying they won't return to the park because of line jumping.
There's line jumping problems anywhere but I have yet to hear anyone say "I'm not going back to Disneyland because there's too much cutting going on."
My Beautiful wife, Julia, is the best thing that has ever happened to me!
It never bothers me if there's one or 2 people saying "excuse me", because I believe that's different. A whole giant group of people, however, is a different story.
Most parks do a very poor job of explaining that if you want to join friends in the line, that the group in front is supposed to go back to catch up with the friends at the end of the line. Given the choice, they will probably decide to stay where they are. Rides with monitors could be pumping in that message. Posted signs should make that distinction clear, because some may not equate joining friends in line with cutting as much as lucky entitlement.
Cedar Point's line cutting is probably made worse by the park's addiction to big patches of switchbacks so you can see friends that are 30-60 minutes ahead of you in line, over and over again. You probably don't have a lot of line cutting on Dueling Dragons at IOA or Space Mountain at DL which consist mostly of barriered walkways.
As far as line jumpers and people who smoke in line.....Well, let's just saythe behavior STILL shocks me. I mean don't people have ANY respect for others anymore? I don't mind someone "getting back in line" to meet up with friends or family but I have NO respect for people who just cut. Like Josh said, sometimes you have to be authorative and let the aholes know that cutting is NOT acceptable.
Some park employees and security are adamant about enforcing the rules while others (who obviously don't give a rat's ass) turn the other cheek.
It still boils down to respect and manners, and it's NOT just the teenagers who cut in line. I really don't see how people can live with themselves knowing that they cut in front of others, but I am old school. I actually HAVE respect for others.
-Tina
*** Edited 7/5/2008 12:01:40 AM UTC by coasterqueenTRN***
coasterqueenTRN said:
I actually HAVE respect for others.
I'd like to think that most of us do. However, even in this thread we can't seem to agree on what constitutes unacceptable line-cutting.
You don't mind "someone getting back in line to meet up with friends or family" and Raven-Phile isn't bothered "if there's one or 2 people saying excuse me" but I can't be the only one who thinks that even that would constitute breaking the rules.
Let's go for a quick test:
1. You exit a ride with some friends. Some go to the bathroom. The others get in line for hand-cut fries. You wash up, realize you're thirsty, and ask a friend in the fry line to get you a Coke. Line cutting?
2. Traffic is heavy leaving the park. You have the right of way, but see a car at a stop sign looking to get in. You wave 'em in. They thank you. Line cutting?
In both cases, doing the respectful thing would equate to line cutting. You will be getting your Coke before those who stood in line behind your friend. You let a car in, without checking with every car behind you. Pouring a coke takes seconds. Adding a car-length to a jam takes even less. However, it does extend the wait, in principle, as the queue cutting that we all detest.
Too many gray areas.
I bet, that even on this thread where we are all in agreement that line cutting is a vibe killer, that we couldn't agree on the best punishment for a cutter (removal from line, removal from park, or having season passes -- if applicable -- rescinded).
Now if I was already in line for food and someone CUT in front of me I would have a problem with it. It's a sign of obnoxiousness without ANY respect for others. Now if someone walked up to their friend and asked them to get them something while they were ordering their own food I wouldn't have a problem with that. I wouldn't think twice about it. I would do that for a friend. I wouldn't and have NEVER cut in any line, though. That's just wrong, period. :)
I see line cutters everywhere, though. It's not really a "gray" area with me. People either have manners or they don't.
-Tina
*** Edited 7/5/2008 1:03:04 AM UTC by coasterqueenTRN***
mulfdog said:So is SFA responsible for the behavior of its guests?
No, but they're certainly responsible for enforcing their own rules, wouldn't you say?
SLFAKE said:
...The park offers "virtual queuing" for those who are willing to pay for it. No matter how much you want to rant, it isn't line jumping. It's a perk for those guests who pay...
I know it sounds like a rant, and I apologize for that. The reason it sounds so is because of how complicated it is for me to describe how it IS line jumping. I always think that I need to word it many ways so that some people grasp my ideas.
I know it would be easy to skip ahead, but please read on...
If riding one ride while Mommy waits in another ride's line and then meeting up with her is line jumping, then VQ is line jumping too.
The reason line jumping is against the rules is because it makes other people's waits longer while the perpetrator's waits do not exist'
Waiting in more than one line at a time makes other people wait longer because you are taking up more than one person in the parks overall wait times.
If there was a way to limit a person to waiting in one (and only one) line at a time, including VQ and standby lines, then it would be a very fair system.
...But VQ's clog the lines and wait times become much longer. It doesn't work the way it the parks want you to believe, which is, "People who use VQ are simply waiting their turn to ride outside the line." Because they are riding twice as many rides or more than non-VQers, they are cutting.
I know that it is very difficult to understand, especially if you are all for VQ's, but please try to understand my point of view. It is not a rant inspired by someone who is ticked off at feeling less than others, at least hasn't been within the last few years since I make decent money now. This opinion is one of deep thought of the real effect of how VQ can actually make wait times longer for those not using it.
I feel I have a valid opinion on the subject.
..And my opinion on this subject is right. ;)
-Travis
www.youtube.com/TSVisits
Line jumping, in recent years, has become more than a huge irritation; it has also become a possible physical threat. Once upon a time, I would have said that to any line jumper I would call them out on their rudeness. I'm not a woman who would let anyone walk all over me. My parents didn't raise me like that.
However, anyone now knows that if you call out a line jumper, you might be rewarded with a fist to the face or other physical assault that, unfortunately, most other people in line will do nothing to stop out of concern for their own physical safety.
I have recently become a mother. If I wasn't going to risk my physical safety before as a childless woman, then I sure as heck am not going to introduce any risk with my own child as well.
I look forward to taking my new little boy to Dutch Wonderland in 2 years, and then on to Hershey Park. SFA or any other park in which I would perceive such threat to myself or to my children isn't in the picture of consideration. I won't apologize for that.
LostKause said:
If there was a way to limit a person to waiting in one (and only one) line at a time, including VQ and standby lines, then it would be a very fair system....But VQ's clog the lines and wait times become much longer. It doesn't work the way it the parks want you to believe, which is, "People who use VQ are simply waiting their turn to ride outside the line." Because they are riding twice as many rides or more than non-VQers, they are cutting.
As you know we bought into the Gold Bot on our last SF visit. I never waited in more than one line at once - no reason to when the wait is so short, I can reserve from across the park and get in line anytime after my reservation has come up.
The systems have evolved beyond the two-places at once thing. Now it's simply a matter of being given priority access to rides for a price.
Is it line cutting or paying extra for an enhanced level of service/additional benefits?
Or both?
And is it really still an issue? I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's not like it was 6 or 7 years ago when these systems were new and no one understood. There's no nasty talk, dirty looks, bitching and moaning. None. People are cool with it. At least three different people in stand-by lines even asked me how much it cost and how long we were waiting and seemed genuinely interested. (and admittedly a little taken when you tell them it's $100 for two people)
We're closing in on 10 years since Disney started it and more and more parks pick up some sort of system each year ranging from Disney's free-to-all Fast Pass to Universal's FOL access for resort guests to Six Flags and the various levels of Q-bot for a price to Dollywood's Q2Q for rides and shows to Busch Gardens Quick Queue to Hershey's Sweet Access for resort guests. It goes on and on.
It's not even an issue anymore...at least in the parks, it's not. They've finally realized they can offered tiered service like countless other industries do. It's here to stay.
But this isn't about VQ systems, it's about line cutting, right? :)
Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of times I've personally seen someone cut in line in the last few years.
Either I'm oblivious, lucky or go to the right places at the right time - and in all cases it wasn't just a group of kids pushing through to the front. It's usually a single person or maybe two kids sliding through to meet someone in line. By park definition, line cutting. By my definition, nothing to get worked up over.
For example, a coaster has a capacity of 30,000 riders a day spread over the day.
Your gate for the day is 30,000 people.
With virtual queuing you assign those 30,000 people the 30,000 spots on the coaster.
No waiting. No fuss. No muss.
Next question?
(figure in ride down time, people who don't want to ride, etc, it all seems to work out... at least at Disney, and thats including the standby line.)
CP's "Ticket to ride" program sucked because they did hour increments on the hour... Disney does 'rolling' hours. (12:00 to 1:00.. 12:05 to 1:05.)
Simple lack of brains and technology.
With Gold, you don't have the chance to wait in more lines at the same time, but I would argue that it is as damaging to others experience than normal FP. The reason being that you can hop on a ride whenever you want, and if you abuse the perk, it's as if you are you are waiting in 6 or more lines at one time.
But this is about line jumping and the conversation went "there" again. What I wanted to ask is...
How has the VQ perk affected people's feeling towards line jumpers? Are line jumpers stealing from:
1. park guests who are waiting in line too?
2. The park for not paying for the privilege of getting more ride per day than everyone else?
3. Both 1 and 2?
4. Or neither, they are not stealing anything from anyone?
-Travis
www.youtube.com/TSVisits
My family and I watched a employee remove three people from the log ride queue when another person in their party tried to catch up. The employee said no cutting in line for any reason, no bathroom, no food, etc.
LostKause said:
But this is about line jumping and the conversation went "there" again.
It didn't go there. You took it there in the third post of the thread. However, instead of starting a "getting tired of thread jumpers" post, let me tell you that your opinion, though valid, is fighting a losing battle.
Is virtual queueing sanctioned park cutting? You bet. No argument. Someone is paying to get on a ride sooner, at the expense of those who are not willing to pay, can't afford to pay, or are too late to pay to get on a ride sooner.
Parks used to be general admission, but now your entrance is more like a base admission. Like hotels, air flights, and live events, you pay according to the level of service you require.
If you're asking why someone who is paying $40 for entrance or $60 for a season pass divided by an infinte number of turnstile clicks isn't as valuable to a park as someone willing to pay an extra $20-$30 for boarding station passes, $200 for a VIP escort, or $300 to spend the night at an on-site resort to get in the park early, you're making an emotional argument, but not a logical one.
The lamp has been uncorked. You can't get that genie back into the bottle. Parks have incremental revenue streams, and even the base admission patron -- complaining about the "pay-to-cut schemes" -- doesn't realize that those paying extra for the perks are actually subsidizing the lower gate price for the masses.
Now, before you counter "Well, I wouldn't mind paying an extra $5-$7 for a ticket, or double the season pass price if we ALL stand in the same line" ask yourself if the perks-paying patron would be willing to pay less for that same scenario? The answer, of course, is no, because they have already elected to pay up. And if the prospect of waiting in long lines keeps the person ready to blow Franklins at a park -- instead of Lincolns -- away, why would a park agree to make less money.
Disney World, Disneyland, Cedar Point and Hersheypark let guests paying to stay at their resorts in to select park sections an hour early. Before you argue "well, it doesn't bother me, since it's a non-operating hour" do yourself a favor and go to Magic Kingdom or Disneyland during an Extra Magic morning. The guest arriving at the 8am or 9am regular opening, running off to Space Mountain, expecting to walk on the ride is already in for a 30-50 minute wait.
How many people sprint to Dragster the moment Cedar Point opens, only to be taken aback by the Joe Cool members and Breakers overnight guests already in line ahead of them for their repeat rides?
It isn't fair that Universal Orlando hotel guests get to wait in shorter lines? It's not right that you can pay $25 at Magic Mountain to shorten four coaster lines? It's a shame that you can pay $400 at Cedar Point to have someone escort you to the front of every line for 8 hours? The answer may be "yes" to all three, but it would be bad business to kill those offerings. Why? Because if it was bad business you wouldn't see so many parks embracing the practice in one form or the other.
Fast Passes, Flash Passes, Q-Bots, platinum pass benefits ARE NOT LINE JUMPING.. HELLO! PEOPLE PAID EXTRA MONEY FOR THIS.
The elaboration on this subject and the way it has blown way out of proportion is absolutely killing me.
I MEANT WHEN SOMEONE IS SHOVING PAST YOU IN A QUEUE LINE OR WHEN SOMEONE AND THEIR FRIENDS ALL DUCK UNDER THE HAND RAILS WHEN THE LINE IS MOVING.
These people are BREAKING PARK RULES AND GETTING AWAY WITH IT, and no one seems to give a crap because parents these days are too lenient to teach their kids respect for others.
THAT is what is making me mad.
That is IT. *** Edited 7/5/2008 4:49:10 PM UTC by mil_force31482***
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