Flying Turns Update

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Ajrides said:The point im trying to make is that this project was an in house one and if they cant get trains built for it im sure there is companies out there that can design them to get this coaster finished. Im positive that there is still designers around from the old models as well as the plans for the trains. The ones they have been testing look like something designed by Home Depot and are nothing like the original ones.

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I don't think there are any designers around from all the old models. But there are plenty of designs and blueprints - the major problem is that the designs and blueprints don't reflect alterations and changes made to the ride once it was put into service.

The testing train is a prototype it's not a finished train. The train design had to be completely rethought to be within ASTM standards. Additionally, PA passed a law a few years back which forbits inline seating on rides (obviously all older rides are grandfathered in) but the flying turns trains were inline seating and that is not possible.

They have a train from the Euclid Beach FT which is what their original design was based on. Evidently, this spring they were able to examine a train from the Coney Island bobsleds and found some MAJOR differences/changes from the Euclid beach train - they are trying some of these to their train design. My understanding from listening to Leonard Adams on opening weekend is that the main problem is how the lead car is acting in the transitions particularly towards the end of the ride when it's at its fastest.

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jimvid said:
But there are plenty of designs and blueprints

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Are you sure about that?

I know it's likely 100% false, but it just doesn't seem like they care anymore. The ride is just sitting there and there's been no reported progress whatsoever.

Now I'm really wanting a Boulder Dash-esque ride more than I previously was.

Knoebels has copies of the blueprints to the Riverview Park bobsleds which their FT is based on. Knoebels Flying Turns will be a mirror image of Riverviews (making it the same as Coney Island's). The Coney Island blueprints also exist (as do the trains evidently) - I believe with the Bognsinore family. If you have a copy of Charles Jaques Flying Turns booklet - there are many of Barlett's designs, patents, and train designs. I believe the blueprints for the Euclid Beach flying turn are also still around.

'Plenty' was probably the wrong word to use as there weren't that many flying turns ride produced in the first place and only three had a good lifespan (Coney Islands 1941-1974, Riverview 1936-1968, and Euclid Beach 1930-1968)

Why does everyone assume nothing is happening because we don't see people working on the site? There's nothing else to hammer, drill, etc. Is Knoebels supposed to pay carpenters to pretend they're doing something just so it looks like there's activity around the ride?

If they're trying to work some bugs out of the cars or make them handle the track better, that's nothing we're going to see on a daily basis. Some of the things I've heard (which may or may not be true-- some others here could probably verify or discount):

They are trying to avoid having to install shoulder restraints on the cars or anything that would restrict rider's views along the course. They want to make access in and out of the cars easy, but not leave them too open where a rider could carelessly dangle a hand or arm outside the car.

Yes, Euclid's FT was much taller than Riverview's (on which Knoebels is basing their design). I could imagine the squawking about an even bigger, more costly ride not open. Look at it this way, Knoebels might not be making money by having this ride not open. But how much would they lose if things weren't exactly right and someone was injured while riding?

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Amnesiac said:
MF ridership debut and following year:
2000: 1,735,347
2001: 1,954,163

WT
2002 1,024,232
2003 1,100,583

And of course Dragster:
2003 562,438
2004 943,313

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Good stats to go by, but what about additions prior to the trio of Intamin rides that had significant downtime during their inaugural season? The problem I had with Dragster was that we knew there was going to be downtime with the ride. We saw it with MF and WT. However, nobody could have possibly been prepared for the ride to run barely half of the season.

John Peck, if you compare MF's and WT's downtime to Dragster then you are right, it's not significant. But compare the downtime to the inaugural season of Power Tower and Mantis (I couldn't find the stats of Raptor) to the Intamin coasters built, you'll see where I'm getting at.

Power Tower (1998)

1999 1,560,424
1998 1,784,780

Mantis (1996)

1997 1,611,375
1996 1,794,954

I think this is a different situation with Knoebel's compared to Cedar Point and Dragster. Again, I doubted Maverick and I was blown away, I'll admit that.

And as for building a test track for the rolling stock for Flying Turns. Isn't that was Knoebel's is doing by building the actual ride and then design the rolling stock to safely traverse the course? Why pay twice for the track?

~Rob Willi

Well, Arrow made that test track for the 4-D to make sure that any installation purchased would open on time and wouldn't have any problems after opening.... errrr, ummmm, nevermind.

That's the thing. You can make a test track, but how can you decide that a design is adequate when testing at low speeds? Arrow made a complete test track of their version of the Flying Turns and it ended up being a nightmare, but then again they are in the business of building coasters (amongst other things). Naturally they would need to test out a concept and they did this with full scale models, the difference here is that they were banking on building one prototype and then installing this ride many times at other parks and recouping the costs of planning and development.

Knoebels is doing this ride in house. They built a relatively small model of this ride that in the end will be something that people will still want to ride. They aren't in the business of developing this ride to sell at other parks (at least I don't think they are) and wouldn't make sense to build a test track for it. Instead they will develop the proper rolling stock needed.

~Rob Willi

If they are worried about people putting their hands where they shouldn't, here's an option: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorbing ;)

(Note: Forgive me if someone already brought this up...I didn't feel like reviewing all 37 pages to make sure!)

Went to Knoebels yesterday. Talked to the ride op at the Flyers, who also helps with the building of Flying Turns. He said that that several members of the Knoebel family, and a few of the construction workers, were able to take rides on the Turns on Friday. Apparently they put in new seating for the ride, and the Knoebles, so far are pleased.

Also, to remove any shroud of this being nothing but a rumor, as my ride for the Flyers started, I just happen to see a train cresting the top of the 1st lifthill, out of the station, with 2 Knoebels employees in the 1st seat. *** Edited 6/29/2008 1:31:55 PM UTC by Coasterphan*** *** Edited 6/29/2008 1:41:22 PM UTC by Coasterphan***

Someone who claims to work at the park (of course, he doesn't use his real name) left a comment on one of my YouTube videos last week. He says that he had heard around the park that it would be open in July, possibly even for the 4th. He was, to his credit, skeptical, because he hadn't seen any activity.

That got me thinking. The last I had heard, and it certainly appeared that way when I visited a month ago, there was no testing going on anymore and in fact most of the test cars had been disassembled. So, why would they do that, unless they had finished testing and sent a final design out for fabrication?

The trains did go back to the plant. Part of the reason had to do with to the seats(As I briefly mentioned in my previous post). One of, if not a few of the Knoebel family actually went to the plant to oversee some of the alterations of the seats. What that involved, you would have to ask those who went.

Anyway, as I said, they like the new seats, it's testing, but not with a full train(At least that's what I could gather from my brief view). If this train/seat design gets the winning nod, then I would hope that finishing the trains wouldn't take any longer than a month. But, that last part is just me hoping now.

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jimvid said:
Additionally, PA passed a law a few years back which forbits inline seating on rides (obviously all older rides are grandfathered in) but the flying turns trains were inline seating and that is not possible.

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???

So what if a park wants to build a new log flume?

why would you forbid inline seating on rides? That doesn't make any sense. Thats like saying no blue coloured cars on rides, does it make any sort of difference?
Also, anything new, the turns certainly did not open for the 4th.

Here's the webpage on the PA Dept of Agriculture dealing with amusement rides. Anyone who wants to can read through the documents to see whether inline seating is or isn't permitted.

http://www.agriculture.state.pa.us/agriculture/cwp/view.asp?a=3&q=129356

http://www.agriculture.state.pa.us/agriculture/lib/agriculture/legalreference/007_0139.pdf

I did a brief once over and saw nothing about how in-line seating wasn't permitted.

Well, rumor is that FT has been tested with a train capable of holding passengers, or at least one in paticular. The park is most certainly trying to get the ride ready before seasons end, but is not making any public statements about an opening date yet.

On Saturday we were at the park and you could see what appears to be a coaster train (complete) parked in the station, but the the structure and location it was impossible to snap a photo. The old test train that was parked on the brakes seems to be in pieces under the ride. It did look as though the ride has been doing some serious testing at some point as there is evidence of marking in the track by the wheels. Heres to hoping PPP has the added benefit of giving sneek peek rides on FT!

When we were there of the 26th of July they were testing FT.

Took what video I could and compiled and posted it on YouTube.

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGs5aPc94Y8

*** Edited 8/14/2008 3:35:25 AM UTC by harbrian9***

My chances of riding it any time soon are pretty bleak unless they miraculously open it within the next 9 days.

I just saw a piece on local new station wnep about Knoebels. They are saying that FT is projected to open on opening day 2010.The knoebels website still has the same update where they say they hope and believe it will be this year.Anybody have any answers?