Fight on the beast's loading platform.

Wednesday, May 2, 2007 4:45 PM
rollergator's avatar ^I got the EASY button!

Staffing....Disney designs queues properly, so there are no merge points where guests are expected to "merge themselves". But more importantly, Disney has employees (CMs) everywhere. Yeah, you STILL get the occasional *problem guest*...but with CMs crawling all over the place, and lines that MOVE, quickly, there's rarely a time/place where line-jumping becomes an issue.

I'd guess that if you checked ratios of guests/employees, you'd find Disney goes "above and beyond"....Gonch, get us some DATA, would ya? ;)

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 5:05 PM
What's with this label of "urban" i've seen a few times? Aren't punks just punks? If it's supposed to be some secret code word, it's not fooling anyone. The next thing you know there will be a "those people" thrown in.

:)

-Tambo

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 5:16 PM
I want to be one of 'Them' people.
Are you one of 'Us' people?
;)

Great Lakes Brewery Patron...

-Mark

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 5:58 PM
Tambo

I resent what you are implying and I do not understand why there is no safe description to describe a "person of color" of any kind without automatically deeming it hateful or prejudice.

They were black/afro-american/blah-blah-blah. That doesn't redeem their actions regardless of what anyone thinks.

Besides, it is that way of thinking that allows others to do exactly what we are complaining about in this thread. It is that type of thinking that kept me and all of those people who witnessed what happened in my previous post silent for fear of your kind of pursecution.

Now get back on topic or lock this thread!


Thanks for another great season, VF!

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 7:27 PM
What would you do in these situations? These have happened to me... just interested in how others would handle the same situations...

1. Girl behind me in line for MF starts pushing on me. Then harder. Then she PUNCHES me in the back really hard. What would you do at this point? You have been physically assaulted!!! (Glad she didn't have a knife!!!)

2. Father wants to cut in line for the log flume. Everyone lets him up until me, where I stand with my arms on the handrails and ignore him. All of a sudden he starts the "My kid is up there all along!" routine. Yeah, IMO if you cared about your kid you wouldn't leave them alone in the park. The kid was with his mother. People in line around me start to scold me saying "How could you separate a poor child from his father?" All of a sudden more people gasp and start to stare at me. What would be your reaction to this situation?


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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 7:36 PM
Random thoughts and commentary for the thick-skinned…
  • Disney has as much line-cutting as anybody in my experience. The line-cutters there have the distinct advantage of usually not knowing the English language (highly Asian dominated). This means any attempts to embarrass through words are rendered ineffective. Physical violence would be the only means for those so inclined to escalate…

  • Neither park security nor vigilante line-police will do much good in stopping this problem. I dare say that most confrontations will only escalate an already unfortunate situation.

  • Line-cutting indeed has been around forever. The difference is that today’s culture indeed dictates that violence is a strong possible outcome for these scenarios. It is the increased violence that is concerning.

  • Parents and schools should teach respect we are told…and I agree. Yet school and parents more-and-more spend their time preaching about the inequities of America. There was a time when everybody was taught about the opportunities this country held for EVERYBODY. Now we spend so much time and effort looking at unequal outcomes and then assigning blame. Kids are taught excuses and scapegoats at every step of their learning years. We’ve got evil corporations and “The Man” holding you back. We’ve got the filthy rich stealing from the poor (Q-bots anyone?)…so on and so forth. Personal responsibility is a foreign concept…

  • We’ve got a black population in this country that often hides behind racism to excuse bad behavior. Who can blame them? It works… Parks, sympathetic whitey, media are all willing to ignore bad behaviors…but NEVER miss the opportunity to call out racism…whether justified or unjustified. This reaction minimizes reaction to those events where real racism is a factor.

At Duke…three lives were ruined by sensationalist media, a rogue prosecutor, and a spineless faculty who were willing to publicly convict the innocent based upon the tried and true concept that “the rich white man was getting away with rape.” Few and far between were those willing to step up and defend these guys… Any wonder that teenagers at an amusement park might instantly blame race as a factor for their poor behaviors? If one of the leading universities in this country have a majority faculty who turned their backs on their own in the absence of any evidence of guilt…why would we expect our teenagers to act differently?

The entire Virginia Tech massacre was the result of one whacko with an irrational hatred for “the rich.” While we’re stuck discussing gun control…does anybody step back to look at what cultural factors could lead a person to hate “the rich” that much? While certainly not everybody is going to go on shooting sprees over such non-sense…the point is that we have a culture of blame. Whether this manifests itself as young coaster message board posters preaching the virtues of line-cutting as reasonable response to Fastpass systems OR young “urban” youths screaming racism as defense for piss poor behaviors…it is really the same problem. There simply is zero respect for rules and authority.

Parent and schools have become viable sounding boards for excuses. Adults from college down to elementary school preach a “victim” mindset that has infiltrated an entire generation. We concentrate on all the wrongs and inequities while ignoring the opportunities available to those willing to persevere within the rules.

If parents, media, teachers, etc. would refocus the majority of their efforts highlighting the positives that come from respecting rule and authority as means to grasp opportunities for success…then maybe this “victim” attitude could start dissipating. I won’t hold my breath waiting for this change. I’ll just hold my breath should I decide to visit SFMM or The Beast loading platform again when rampant line-cutting and general shenanigans are on full display. Sadly…this I now the “norm” for those who want to visit any place that would also attract the unsupervised teenage subset.

*** Edited 5/2/2007 11:40:22 PM UTC by Jeffrey R Smith*** *** Edited 5/2/2007 11:41:07 PM UTC by Jeffrey R Smith***

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 7:44 PM
OhioStater's avatar If you want to know what the problem is, listen to Chris Rock. There's black people...and then there's...

Oh wait, Im white, Im not allowed to say it.

To answer your question BeccaRaptor, I most likely would have let the dad go with no hesitation. He was most likely just a dad left behind in a bathroom or something, especially if everyone else was letting him go, and you actually saw the kid and his mother. I wouldnt just "ignore him".

With the girl, I would have most certainly put her in her place. Youre in a line full of people who (assuming) also dont want to be cut in front of, and I have many times quickly recruited people around me to stop would-be cutters.

They can be "urban" or "rural". I prefer "waste of sperm", but that's just me.

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 8:55 PM
I am agree with Jeffery on most of those points, I actually have had worse line cutting at the Orlando Parks than any other. At Universal on Men in Black in that hallway where everyone is squished together and there is always that one family that has the urge to get in front of every single person there, but that is almost expected in a situation like that. At Disney's Animal Kingdom a group of spanish speakng people cut in front of every single person because they had there flash pass out thinking it meant you walk up to the front finally someone told the line people about it and it was really funny the poor disney employee trying to explain to a family that only spoke spanish.

Seriously though line cutting is done by every group of people, and parks dealing with it is unacceptable and that one fight in KD was probably because they were fighting over if KD was better that SFA.


Bolliger/Mabillard for President in '08 NOT Dinn/Summers

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 9:12 PM
CoastersNSich's avatar WELL said, Jeffrey, especially about the "black population hiding behind racism" and the Duke Lacrosse players. IMHO "Crying Racism" is the latest "Crying Wolf" or "Shouting Fire in a crowded theater."

I was getting in line for the Beast Sunday night, just as a tall park policeman was running toward the ride. I should add that until last year, there were a few anti-line jumping signs in the queues, but I guess they were removed because of the P-word on them. Hopefully Cedar Fair gets to putting a lot of new ones in.

Yeah, I think staffing has also been an issue; I was hoping there would be an infusion of greeters and station attendants (row assigners/separators) with Cedar Fair taking over this year. First with making sure everyone is of proper height, and boosting capacity... now we've seen another argument for additional staffing, as a deterrent to line jumping.


Dental Plan! Lisa Needs Braces.

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 9:48 PM
I was there sunday and the beast was the last thing we were going to ride around close but my Fiance didnt feel to good so we left. Looks like her not feeling good was for the best.
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Thursday, May 3, 2007 12:09 AM
I'll say it again...WHITE people can be considered "thugs" or "urban". Every time I read these words, I didn't once think of a skin color to go along with the description. I thought of the kinds of clothes they wore and the attitude they portrayed.

Doesn't anyone here like the earlier idea of "security cameras" being in plain view within the line area? This is the best solution, imho.

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:53 AM
SF Great Adventure has good intentions with giving out the tickets, but they need to learn how to actually look at them. At Kingda Ka, the security guard that was supposed to be collecting them just motioned for us to throw them in the garbage can that he was learning on. At El Toro, they weren't collecting them at all. The person in front of us asked the guard if they needed to do anything with the ticket and she said "no". They may think giving them out is a deterrant, but people are going to see it not being enforced and they'll be back to square one.
Sue
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Thursday, May 3, 2007 8:07 AM
OhioStater's avatar My wife put it best last night with one word; enforcement. Line jumping is supposed to be cause for removal from the park. Unfortunately, even when called out (three times last year at CP in MF's line), the person working does NOTHING. In fact, the worst "punishment" I have ever seen is asking them to go to the end of the line.

If the people LJ'ing knew they had something to lose, they might stop. I do not believe it's a staffing issue (at least at CP)....it's what the staff does....or doesnt do.

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 8:11 AM

WildThingNative said:
Tambo

I resent what you are implying and I do not understand why there is no safe description to describe a "person of color" of any kind without automatically deeming it hateful or prejudice.


Why do you have to label them any further than "thugs" "punks" or "a-holes"?


They were black/afro-american/blah-blah-blah. That doesn't redeem their actions regardless of what anyone thinks.


Of course it doesn't redeem their actions, but why did you have to point out the fact that they were "urban"? Why did the color of their skin matter in telling this story?


Besides, it is that way of thinking that allows others to do exactly what we are complaining about in this thread. It is that type of thinking that kept me and all of those people who witnessed what happened in my previous post silent for fear of your kind of pursecution.

quote]

The reason that you didn't do anything had nothing to do with the fact that you can't say anything about "people of color". You failed to act out of fear, which is normal except in rare cases. Would you have acted any differently if they were white and out of control? I doubt it.

-Tambo


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Thursday, May 3, 2007 3:09 PM

Jeffrey R Smith said:


Disney has as much line-cutting as anybody in my experience. The line-cutters there have the distinct advantage of usually not knowing the English language (highly Asian dominated). This means any attempts to embarrass through words are rendered ineffective. Physical violence would be the only means for those so inclined to escalate…


If that's so, I've been missing it. I rarely have a problem at a Disney park while I have had problems at pretty much all other parks I've been to. Maybe it's the high ratio of families to other types of guests, I really don't know. Maybe it's the fact that most lines have cast members at the beginning to feed in the FastPassers?


Now we spend so much time and effort looking at unequal outcomes and then assigning blame. Kids are taught excuses and scapegoats at every step of their learning years... Personal responsibility is a foreign concept…

How very, very, very true that is. No one is accountable for what they do anymore- there's always someone to blame beyond the individual. I blame a lot of half-assed parents and their half-assed parenting but I also blame society and the media. Together they work to make sure that everyone has an excuse for what they do, which is covered in Jeffrey's next statement:


We’ve got a black population in this country that often hides behind racism to excuse bad behavior. Who can blame them? It works… Parks, sympathetic whitey, media are all willing to ignore bad behaviors…but NEVER miss the opportunity to call out racism…whether justified or unjustified. This reaction minimizes reaction to those events where real racism is a factor.

I almost hate to comment on this because I feel that anything I say about racism is going to brand me a racist, but I suppose that is a good example of how out-of-control things have become.

Those that know me personally know that I am not at all racist... and if it appears that I have hatred towards a certain type of person, it's only because I have hatred towards pretty much all types of people. I can't think of one "group" of people that doesn't piss me off from time to time, especially the "groups" to which I belong! But I think it's time that certain people "man up" and accept responsibility for their problems instead of crying racism all the time. All the false cries of racism do a hell of a lot to undermine instances where real racism is taking place.

People that follow sports surely know the story of Pacman Jones, the Titans player that tossed a bunch of money at strippers while in Vegas over the NBA All-Star weekend... an event that triggered a shoot-out between his group and the people running the club when the strippers started grabbing up all the money. I heard numerous people claim that people shouldn't blame Pacman because his poor black upbringing neglected to teach him how to handle money. People that blamed Pacman for what happened were racist because they were looking down on yet another black athlete and his actions.

Are you for real?

Why can't we blame the guy? After all, it was his actions that led to the shoot-out. It was his actions that led to an innocent club employee that was trying to keep the peace to become permanantly handicapped for the rest of his life, just as it always seems to be a black athlete at the epicenter of crap like that. A local paper outlined a bunch of poorly-behaved NFL players that are on the new commish's "sh*t list" because of prior arrests regarding shoot-outs, possession of firearms, purchases of illegal drugs, DWI/DUI's and spousal abuse. The list included 11 black athletes and one white guy about to disappear into the background. I'm not one for racial profiling- really, I'm not- but there are cases when people representing the race in question escalate matters and give people reasons to profile.

Why is it wrong for people to point that out? Why is it okay for society and the media to come down on those people? Wouldn't the efforts be better spent trying to correct matters, rather than finding reasons to point fingers?

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 4:10 PM

Jeffrey R Smith said:
  • Disney has as much line-cutting as anybody in my experience.


I couldn't agree more. I've never seen more line-cutting than at Disneyland. Off-duty employees were even cutting in line.


  • Parents and schools should teach respect we are told…and I agree. Yet school and parents more-and-more spend their time preaching about the inequities of America. There was a time when everybody was taught about the opportunities this country held for EVERYBODY. Now we spend so much time and effort looking at unequal outcomes and then assigning blame. Kids are taught excuses and scapegoats at every step of their learning years.


Funny, I spend most of my time teaching math and instilling responsibility in my students. I think you might be confusing "schools" with politicians. I don't often hear teachers preaching about inequities. I am certain that students that learn at my school leave with more responsibility than when they came.

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 6:16 PM
Cudos to Dexter, Rob A., and Jeff S.

Tambo:

I do understand your point. Although there was still no need to make accusations because of one word that is actually more about culture than color. There is no place to point out generalization where there is none.

I will answer your questions:

1. Does it realy matter? Actually. Isn't thug or punk more negative that urban?

2. Because that is who committed the act. There is honesty in that. Plus it is in context to the comment near the end.

3. Probably not. But the staff should have (there were 5 of them). And yes, I do believe that the situation would have ended different if the acts were committed by a different "label" as you call it.

Otherwise next time I'm there I'll see about wrecking a few cars myself...kidding.

*** Edited 5/3/2007 10:18:36 PM UTC by WildThingNative***


Thanks for another great season, VF!

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 6:34 PM
mulfdog:

Do you teach at a private or rural public school? Your experience is not what I’ve observed.

The district I work at (not a teacher) is one of the largest in the country (top five I believe) and we've got the "victim" mentality covered.

Just two days ago we let the Hispanic (and sympathizers) students out of classes to attend the immigration rally…paid for police escort while they walked about 3-4 miles with flags/signs in hand…then paid to have them bussed safely back to school once the rally ended.

What normal kid would not jump at the opportunity to skip class and attend a rally…all on the school/taxpayer dime? The message…it is ok to skip school without consequence since the mean old government is talking about enforcing THE LAW.

Whether you agree with immigration laws or not is irrelevant to this discussion. It is just the most recent of MANY examples I could give which demonstrates how our society (schools in this case) teaches our kids that it is OK to ignore rules/laws that we personally disagree with. If you don’t like the rule…then break it.

These kids actually see themselves as victims who have been wronged…most with nary a clue about who is paying for their education…and SADLY who is letting them skip that education the taxpayer funds.

We’ve got entire groups of kids (and adults) who are chronically offended and/or self-imaged-victims. There is irrational anger and hatred toward certain groups…most of which have absolutely NOTHING to do with any perceived slights toward an individual’s lot in life.

I think it was better when everybody understood the opportunities that exist for everybody in this country. I’m not blindly ignoring obstacles…fair and unfair…but merely suggesting that dwelling on obstacles is a piss poor sociological method for ensuring a productive society.

When I see large numbers of kids willing to unabashedly cut in line and then “throw down” with anybody who dare question them…it saddens me. When I see racial groups consistently (not always) blame racism as deflection for immoral/illegal behaviors…it saddens me. I could go on…

What saddens me most is the realization that if I choose to take my family (2 kids now) to an amusement park…I have to be willing to bite my tongue and let others trample my rights so as to avoid good possibility for violence. This is now “the norm” for a park trip.

I’ve seen it enough with my own eyes to understand that these are not isolated events. While certainly no every-day occurrences for the average park-goer…safe to say that it is not all that rare.

With poor operations (one train coasters, closed food stands, reduced hours, incomplete park openings, etc) an industry standard…this is just one more problem to add to the list. I’ve always considered the amusement park to be a rather inelastic commodity (i.e. people will take a lot of crap to ride thrill rides). Start threatening the safety of people’s families, and I’m not so sure this will always be the case.

I’ve NEVER taken my son (and now daughter) to Magic Mountain…and I have no plans to do so based upon the frequent fights/arrests I’ve seen made on property. It saddens me to hear my childhood park (and ride) is caught up in similar circumstances. Is their any reason for optimism…in thinking this problem will go away? Or, given the state of society, do we think this will only get worse?

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:38 PM

Jeffrey R Smith said:


Or, given the state of society, do we think this will only get worse?


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, I think you have deep rooted issues of people *different* from yourself??


100th coaster....Dania Beach Hurricane!

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 10:32 PM
^^I teach in a suburban public high school. By no means is it rural or urban for that matter. We currently have 4100 students. With great certainty I can say that our administration would never let a group of students leave school and bus them to a rally on the taxpayers dime.

It sounds to me like the administration in the district is enabling the victim stance. However, I don't believe that this is the case for the majority of administrations.

It is important to keep in mind that the administrators answer to the school board that is elected by the public. The taxpaying public ultimately decides the direction of the school and what is important. My district has an extremely tough discipline policy(3 detentions for chewing gum). But that is what the community wants.

I don't what is right or wrong about setting up a discipline policy but I do know that our students learn a great deal about complying to procedures and rules. They learn a great deal about responsibility. At the end of the day we develop some really great kids. Without the backing of the community there is very little we would be able to do.

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