Fellner estate sues PTC and Holiday World for 2003 accident

Chuck, If you are still sick from this incident (as well as many other Holiday World enthusiasts probably are), I can't even begin to imagine how the Holiday World family feels right now.

Truly I do hope that Holiday World does counter sue...no offense to anyone who would think it be unwise but maybe this will cause someone to wake up and realize where the real problem lied. Not so much that Holiday World gets financial gain out of this but just to try and show the world the truth of what happened.

I don't get how this could have been negligence on that of Holiday World or PTC. If someone chooses to explicitly do something that anyone in their right mind would not think of doing and even when Holiday World explicitly told us all on Friday night before the start of SRM that year to not try to unbuckle the seatbelts nor to not try to tamper with the restraints in any way...how anyone can put any blame on Holiday World at this point it completely beyond me.

My prayers go out to all at Holiday World, as well as Tamar Fellner's family.I hope somehow peace and happiness will be found once again for everyone hurt by this tragedy. It never should have happened.
*** This post was edited by beast7369 5/4/2005 8:17:39 AM ***

Holiday World won't counter-sue. They will respond with class and compassion. Witnesses will give the proper descriptions to the judge. With hundreds of thousands of safe rides given on the Raven each year, theres no way the accusations will float in court.

You know, ever since the final inspectors report was filed, I had this little feeling something like this was cooking up.

People try and put the blame on others when they are looking for closure.

I also hope HW doesn't just "settle" the suit. I hope they stand their ground with all their arlilary.

I didn't read everyones post, but what I want to say is that I feel for Holiday World. I'm so sorry this is happening to them. My heart dropped into my stomach when I read this.

My thoughts and prayers are with EVERY one at Holiday World.

---

So pardon me if I so not think the system is always fair. I take offense to those that say otherwise.

---

Who ever said it was fair? It's not all of the time, but we live in one of the only countries in the world where it's possible to settle a dispute in court, where the government trusts its own citizens to mediate the dispute and render a decision. I'm about as far from a flag waver as they come, but that's a very important aspect of our culture and society, and one that has been in place for more than two centuries now. Few nations in history have a track record like that.

I hate that Holiday World (and PTC) has to deal with this after two years of healing. Unfortunately, the cost of doing business is that someone may sue you, and you have to respond to it. Someone died, and the emotional response to that is going to be strong, in this case enough to sue, regardless of what their chances are to win the case. I don't know what possible evidence they could have to prove any of the counts, but it ultimately comes down to what the eight people in the box think. I've been a juror, I know how it works, and while juries certainly make mistakes, I still have faith in the system that the jury will find in favor of Holiday World and PTC. With any luck, the defense will call for dismissal (because like I said, I can't imagine what evidence they actually have), and the judge will throw out the case.

In the mean time, perhaps it's about time that Indiana adopt a rider responsibility law, if one is not already in place.

Why they're adapted that rider reponsibility law they can add a little tort reform... :-)

The ironic thing is that what really killed this girl was lawsuits like this. Back in the day when you were responsible for yourself, there could be a coaster with buzzbars and you kept your butt in the seat and your belt fastened. Now if you can do something, it must be safe because you know you can find a lawyer that will tell you someone else is 100pct responsible. People don't sense risk anymore and they feel bulletproof. If the Fellner family is reading this...congrats on your contribution to the system that killed your girl.

Here is an article on this story.

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/11560899.htm

I'm not surprised that a suit was filed; if anything I am surprised that it was filed at the beginning of the month rather than the end of it....I figured that the suit would be filed on 5/29 or 5/30.

This is a normal legal action, a maneuver to get a suit filed as late as possible before the limitations window closes (presumably on 5/31/05).

This is not the first time that a park has been sued because a rider climed out of a coaster. I remember reading in ACE News some years ago about a case where Hersheypark successfully defended itself against a suit when someone jumped out of the Sooperdooperlooper.I am not a lawyer, but from what I have read, I believe the counts filed are allegations made against the defendants (Holiday World, PTC), and the defendants will have their opportunity to refute the allegations. From what I have seen of Holiday World, I imagine that each and every point of the allegation will be soundly and convincingly refuted. Reading through the allegations last night, and with the benefit of having been in the park on 5/31/2003, and having taken multiple rides on not only Raven and Legend, but on many other coasters running PTC trains, I thought of pretty convincing answers to every point set out in the counts. That's the response of a casual observer. Once the experts start analyzing the situation, I think they will come up with a more convincing set of arguments even than I can.

Remember, Tamar's family was not at the park that night. They do not know what went on, they know only what happened as an end result. If, as they allege, this was an incident which was not prevented because of negligence on the part of PTC or the park then they are certainly entitled to investigate that possibility, and possibly even to receive compensation as a result of that incident. Of course, I don't believe this to be the case, but then I was at Holiday World that night, I've seen how they conduct themselves in all aspects of their business, and I have reason to believe that there was no negligence involved. The plaintiffs do not have the benefit of that experience, and they have reason to believe that there is a possibility that somebody did something wrong (after all, Tamar came out of the coaster and was killed, and their experience suggests that she would do nothing herself to cause this!). Ultimately I believe the final decision will echo what we already think we know. But the reality is, the only way for that to happen now is for the system to run its course.

There is no need for us to panic, and it is particularly inappropriate for us to be hurling insults at Tamar and her family now. It simply isn't productive. Instead, let's concentrate on doing anything we can to prevent ourselves or others from repeating fatal mistakes, okay?

--Dave Althofff, Jr.
(edit: the word is "hurling", not "hurting")
*** This post was edited by RideMan 5/4/2005 2:13:09 PM ***

Well said, Dave. Good to see another calm voice in the crowd.

I don't buy the "they were not there so they should sue" argument. Most of us were not there either. They have access to all the evidence they can use in court, and they have had 2 years to review it. It is not like they are clueless on this. They know it was Tamar's fault. But they also know that there is a good chance that the park will settle and next to no chance that they will be countersued even if they legally could be. It is as simple as that.

A lot of interesting threads lately that have been making my usual lurking self come out more and more. A bit of a mini-rant on all of this...

When I began to see how enthusiasts at parks conducted themselves in 1999 from the other side of the fence, I immediately stopped calling myself an enthusiast. The sheer amount of people that tried to ride rides without the restraints properly fashioned because they "are a member of ACE and had ridden before" or because "I have my card right here" was disgusting. I had never done anything like that in the decade or so that I had called myself an enthusiast, but I also had never gone to events to hang out with other people. Had I done so, I know that I wouldn't have been okay with how so many of them acted.

The accident that happened in 2003 at Holiday World was the culmination of years of a "holier than thou" attitude from most enthusiasts that they could do whatever they wanted and nothing would matter. Unfortunately, the park that it happened at was Holiday World, a park that catered toward enthusiasts and let them have their way more than most parks for various reasons. Was Holiday World out of line for not enforcing the rules in the same way at all times for enthusiasts? Yes. Would that alone have stopped Tamar from trying to keep the lapbar up as far as possible and then unbuckling her seatbelt and standing during the ride? Probably not.

It did do one good thing though -- the enthusiast community has changed for the better. I no longer see as many people as I once did getting out their cards and demanding that the train be sent with their lap bar up. I no longer see as many people trying to trick ride operators into not pushing their lap bars all the way down. For the most part, enthusiasts know that they have to be on best behavior now because parks have started to really crack down on them, and most of them have fallen into place to be good parkgoers now. It is a refreshing change, although it is really sad that it took a death to awake the community to the fact that this was a problem to begin with.

I am not saying this in any way to be an insult to Holiday World or Tamar or her family. What Tamar did was stupid, we can all agree, but before the accident happened it wasn't like she was the only one who did it. There were threads posted with ways to get past the lapbars and people gleefully talked about how they stood up to "catch more air." She wasn't the first person to do something like this, and unfortunately she won't be the last -- but her death changed the roller coaster enthusiast community so it recognizes behavior like that as determental and dangerous. Enthusiast riding behavior had gotten to a dangerous point, and if it wasn't her, it would've been someone else.

While I was saddened by the death, and saddened for a park that is easily amongst my favorite in the United States, the results of the accident have had a positive effect on the hobby and the industry. Something that I hope that Tamar is happy to see where ever she is now. I don't blame the family at all for the lawsuit although it is too bad that Holiday World will have to take the fall - the enthusiast community that promoted that sort of activity is the place where the blame should lie, but the family can't sue them. Holiday World is as close as they can get.

thecoasterguy, you are painting with an awfully broad brush, and I think you need to make your allegations with a little more care.

The majority of coaster enthusiasts have not changed their riding habits one bit as a result of 5/31 becasue the vast majority of the enthusiast community has always been careful to ride safely. Furthermore, I take issue with your comment about how Holiday World "let them have their way more than most parks for various reasons." Were you present at Holiday World for that event? Apparently not, for if you had been there, you would know that with the exception of allowing on-ride photography during ERT, ride operations were EXACTLY THE SAME for the enthusiasts as they were for anybody else. Every lap bar was physically checked, every seat belt was tugged, and between the entrance gates and the exit gates, no special treatment was given to anybody. Did you read the findings of the incident investigation? If you want to argue that the lap bar wasn't in an appropriate position, you should re-read the part where it mentions that, according to at least one witness, the attendant readjusted Tamar's lap bar before her last ride. If anything, Holiday World was being more cautious with regard to the enthusiasts in attendance than with their normal customers, as shown by the special instructions distributed to all event attendees as part of the event packet, and by the special reminders that were given during the pre-event.

Well, I wasn't planning to re-hash the things that went on at 5/31. I wanted to be done with that two years ago. But to imply that Holiday World encouraged, or even permitted rider misbehavior does them a tremendous disservice, particularly at this moment, and particularly when the implication simply isn't true. And to imply that enthusiasts as a group tend to engage in dangerous behavior on rides is an insult to the vast majority of card-carrying ride enthusiasts.

One more point, this one directed at RavenTTD:

The park alleges that they did nothing wrong, and that the decedant's actions directly resulted in the incident.

The plaintiff alleges that the decedant did nothing wrong and therefore it was the actions of the park and the train manufacturer that led to the incident.

This is a disagreement, and in our society, when two parties disagree on such matters, it is the role of the civil court system to ajudicate the disputes. That's what our courts do. The fact that the judgements rendered often involve the transfer of negotiable instruments is secondary to the fact that the court exists as a mechanism of dispute resolution. The defendants claim that the incident is the fault of the decedant, the plaintiffs place the blame on the defendants. The plaintiff's strategy is to convince a dozen third-parties that the defendants' allegation is false.

In this case, the plaintiff has his work cut out for him, given fairly conclusive investigative reports from both State officials and independent investigators. But the plaintiff still has a right to plead his case.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Coasterguy, Well stated. But I'll say again, What I've said before. I see far more non enthusiast not riding safely than the general population of enthisiast.

Ride a raft ride, See how many kids/teens take off thier belts and stand to avoid getting swamped. Or the three out of every five magnum and gemini rides I've taken where the front seat riders were standing over the front of the train.

Certainly your right though, It has made people more aware and in general safer riders.

Chuck, who makes no bones about speaking up when he sees it either.

Why don't we all just "WISH

I am shocked and saddened that this is happening, but not completely surprised.

I still say it all started with the woman who spilled McDonald's coffee on her crotch and blamed the restaurant for her own stupidity. Does ANYONE take responsibility for their actions anymore?

That evening was one that I will never forget, but I think this lawsuit is about as frivilous as the McDonald's one. Tamar did NOT *deserve* to die. Nobody *deserves* to die unless they have committed murder themselves, but nobody can blame anyone but her for her careless actions.

-Tina

The plaintiff alleges that the decedant did nothing wrong and therefore it was the actions of the park and the train manufacturer that led to the incident.

They do? Are they really contesting if she took her seatbelt off and stood up? I thought they were saying there were not enough instructions not to do that (as if they thought she should not have known better) and they are challenging if PTC's that allow her to do what she did even against park rules and instruction given make the PTC responsible. I don't think they are alleging that HW and PTC did something uniquely wrong in just this one instance...I think they are challenging the way it is always done because they know the risk to the companies involved and the industry as a whole is too great so they might just settle. If there was some evidence that HW did something uniquely wrong on this one day, that would be one thing. But there is only (for lack of a better term) whining that all PTC's are not Houdini-proof and that a Harvard graduate with extensive coaster experience was not given even more instruction than she was, about not removing her belt and standing up while a ride is in motion. The defense should just call in like 1000 6 year old witnesses at random and ask them how you are supposed to behave on a coaster.*** This post was edited by RavenTTD 5/4/2005 4:37:44 PM ***

RideMan, I have to disagree with your idea that the majority of coaster enthusiasts rode rides correctly before the accident. Are you going to deny the amount of people who were on message boards talking about how to successfully trick ride ops into keeping the harnesses up higher? Since that accident, this type of posting has disappeared.

Take all the issue that you want with my statement about Holiday World catering toward enthusiasts by letting them do things that other parks wouldn't have, but as a patron to the park for the last five years, before the accident ride operators were willing to allow enthusiasts to ride their rides in different ways that normally wouldn't be allowed. This was a marketing decision -- enthusiasts really put Holiday World on the map because of the popularity of the Raven and the Legend, and making enthusiasts happy was a huge part of keeping those rides popular. It is very unfortunate that it bit them. But to deny that it happened at Holiday World? There were tons of pictures of enthusiasts that were so happy because they got to ride with their lap bars very far up, or with the "lanyard" method (even if an end was put to it, it still happened... and who created it? Enthusiasts.), and so on. Enthusiasts mis-riding was happening at the park. A lot.

And your statement about Holiday World being more careful? Perhaps Holiday World had finally been tipped off about how dangerous enthusiasts were, and were trying to put some measures into place. I know of amusement parks that send out memos to warn ride operators that enthusiasts will be in the park that day, so they have to be extra careful with them and make sure that lapbars are down. I know amusement parks that have refused to allow enthusiast events because of how they act. I'm sorry, but denying that there was a problem doesn't do anything. There was.

I'm sure that there were a good number of enthusiasts who are out there who don't fall into this category -- ones who go to the parks, enjoy themselves safely and don't even look like anything more than a regular park patron. Maybe it is just the countless enthusiasts that were just as described above that I have encountered while being in the industry has me jaded. But if there are all of these nice people around, they weren't complaining about the people coming up with methods to keep the lapbars up and who were standing throughout rides. Now, those people who kept quiet before may just be telling the enthusiasts who used to do things like this that doing so only hurts the hobby. And perhaps those enthusiasts are learning, but since that horrible event, I have seen a lot less of the dangerous behavior amongst even people that I know to be enthusiasts. That is a good thing.

If you are trying to state that the vast majority of ride enthusiasts don't engage in dangerous behavior, that's a nice claim to make... but from where I'm standing, one badly riding enthusiast in ten is still much, much more dangerous than people in the general public.

Chuck, you're a very interesting guy and I really enjoy reading your posts on these boards. While I understand your points that the general public rides things improperly -- and raft rides is probably the BEST example of that -- but the difference is that the general public's riding improperly generally isn't as dangerous as enthusiast behavior. I have seen the general public do things like ride stand-ups in a crouched position, switch seats on raft rides and so on. But they generally do not try defeating the lapbar systems (how many people got to learn how to release the lapbars for Gerstlauers on message boards?), unbuckling seatbelts, or tricking the ride operators into allowing them out of the station with an improperly secured restraint. Those are the most dangerous ways to ride, and until this accident happened there was communities online that passed on the "best" information on how to do just that.

If I'm totally off base, and people feel like I'm attacking them -- prove me wrong from here on. Go to the parks, complain about the people who are standing, put your lap bars down to the right position and enjoy the ride.

That's it for me on that. I'll probably be lurking again until the off-season ;-)

Actually, UBRhino, I said that in response to RavenTTD.

The point is that while we all think we know what happened, and there are authoritative documents to back our position, the Fellner family does not agree. Of course, their argument is more complicated than "Tamar did nothing wrong...". But they disagree with the park's assertion that the incident was exclusively her fault, and by bringing suit, they can try and get a dozen people to see things their way. It's modern dispute resolution, that's all.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

(edit: the crap is gone, so I removed my reference to it)
*** This post was edited by RideMan 5/5/2005 10:09:55 AM ***

Dave, thanks for setting the record straight on this crucial point: "But to imply that Holiday World encouraged, or even permitted rider misbehavior does them a tremendous disservice, particularly at this moment, and particularly when the implication simply isn't true."

Those are the facts, that is not speculation.

If this goes to court, it woudl be a tradgedy if Holiday World were to lose. The charges are simply false. To imply that Holiday World was lax in maintainance is, I'm sure, ludicrious. Maintainance on roller coasters is always impressice, and the reprot says nothing was wrong with the unfortunate vitim's restraining devices. To imply that she was improperly warned is odd, considering the safety flyers others are talking about, and I'm sure the standard signage was in place and legible. To imply that the unfortunate victim in this affair was improperly secured seems to also go against the report. And that is the critical point: Even if Holiday World had previously let every single rider out of the station with the lap-bar one-clicked and the seat belt un-buckled, Ms. Fellner was reported as properly secured when she exited the station. Everything points to one, innescapable conclusion: She was directly responsible for the conditions that brought about her death.

The problem as I see it are the charges as brought against PTC. It is undeniable that PTC trains are inherently safe. Trains with this essential desgin have given untold millions of rides over several decades, and have a very god track record. Yes, PTC trains are inherently safe... when the occupants obey the rules. The moment an occupant releases the restraints, the very forces that make the ride so fun also make the trains ineherently un-safe places to be. So, the question is; Considering the inherently deadly nature of the forces the train is subjected to (kept at bay only by a sufficient restraining system), does PTC have the responsibility to ensure that there is no possible way for the restraints to be opend, squirmed out of, or otherwise circumvented? I say no. For one thing, it is probably impossible. For another, even if a system could be set up that simply could not be circumvented, it would probably either defeat the purpose of the ride (to feel the very forces at work here) or make the ride financialy unviable (by substantialy reducing capacity, and with it goodwill and future income), or both. Either way, you end up essentialy outlawing roller coasters because a very few people (one, in this case) did not follow the very clearly stated rules, rules that were already agreed to be essential for a roller coaster's safe operation. But will a jury see it that way? I don't know. Didn't something like this happen with Intamin last year?