Continued: Cedar Fair announces Geauga Lake will be water park only
"Fahrenheit: Drop faster than a 7-game lead."
RatherGoodBear said:
Here's what I'm not following-- people are saying that the economy of the area has dropped and that it's not capable of sustaining an amusement park. On the other hand, a number of posters are talking about using the vacated land to create an upscale marketplace or condos.So if NE Ohio is full of unemployed mullet-heads on meth who can't afford a park ticket, who's going to be sipping the $8 lattes while shopping for $300 shoes?
I dunno, but why does it continually happen? There's not amusement parks everywhere, but there sure are plenty of places to buy $8 lattes and $300 shoes.
If anything it seems lately amusement parks are disappearing at an alarming rate while upscale shopping and condos are being built at an equally alarming rate.
Somebody must know something we don't. :)
Apples and oranges if you ask me. An area's ability to sustain an amusement park with a poor buisness model doesn't seem like a good choice to reflect the housing and retail markets.
And even if you don't like that 'poor business model' thing thrown in there, then how about this one:
Could it be that amusement parks don't mean nearly as much to people as we like to think they do in our little enthusiast bubble? I suspect there's more than a nugget of truth there too.
Maybe there's a segment of people who would never consider $30 for a day at the park, but stroll the walkways of the latest upscale retail area sipping $8 lattes and occasionally buying the $300 shoes?
Perhaps it's several little things that add up to one big one. I say that a lot, I think, but it seems like when any good ol' discussion pops up that everyone is looking for an absolute, easy and singular answer.
"The answer is 10!" is often a battle cry.
I think most times the answer is 2+2+2+2+2
What was my point again? ;)
Look at Opryland. That was a pretty decent park that was leveled in favor of a "Mills" outlet mall.
Guess what the 2nd largest tourist attraction in all of Florida is? Anyone? Obviously, Disney is #1.
Do you think it is Universal? Busch Gardens? South Beach? The Everglades? Daytona Beach or NASA?
Try Sawgrass Mills Mall in Sunrise, Florida. And, it is 2nd by a LONG, LONG way. What does that say about our society? You've got me.
Lord Gonchar said:If anything it seems lately amusement parks are disappearing at an alarming rate while upscale shopping and condos are being built at an equally alarming rate.
It has more to do with our ageing population and how amusement parks are more geared to younger thrill seeks, then a wide range of park goers. Disney, Sea World and Branson ( I know it not a park, but a town)are good examples of places that appeal to a wide range of park goers.
Lord Gonchar said:
Could it be that amusement parks don't mean nearly as much to people as we like to think they do in our little enthusiast bubble? I suspect there's more than a nugget of truth there too.
Hmm, 4 days at an amusement park or Yves Saint
Laurent shoes...I wonder which one I'd choose. . . :)
RWB was retracked over three off-seasons, the last being the only third that CF was responsible for.
Many different observations show that CF intended to close the park, if not concomitant with the purchase, then within a season or two. Let's reiterate:
(1) They stripped out many marquee rides.
(2) While not replacing them with anything.
(3) They gutted the marketing department.
(4) While putting negligible dollars into advertising.
(5) They specifically pulled out or left abandoned every attraction fronting Route 43. When folks at the gas station across the street think the park is closed, that is indicative of a self-destruction mission at work.
(6) Building the new waterpark allows CF to sell every last acre of highly valuable property on the Aurora side.
(7)The "new" Geauga Lake, being only a waterpark, no longer competes with Cedar Point.
(8) Those rides stripped out of the park account for a significant fraction of "new" investment in CF's other parks for 2007, 2008, and probably 2009 seasons.
(9) In an interview from early this year, Kinzel suggests that coaster lovers will come to Cedar Point, while Geauga Lake will be more of a waterpark. This statement alone suggests the plans were in the works at least as of that time.
(10) RWB suffers a derailment. Nothing is done to repair it in the remaining 2 1/2 months in the season.
Just these items alone are a fairly impressive wall of circumstantial evidence that this was the CF plan, if not from the get-go, then certainly from early on. If anyone reading this post can't at least recognize that there is a substantial case for this argument, then you are clearly blind to logic. So I'd appreciate it if people would let up with the "You're all idiots/freaks/conspiracy theorists". It's getting stale and frankly I've had enough of it.
My author website: mgrantroberts.com
Is it? Are you actually suggesting that Geauga's demographic base consisted solely of the gas station across the street? Apparently enough non-gas station employees figured out the park was still open that CF wants to keep the water park going.
"(6) Building the new waterpark allows CF to sell every last acre of highly valuable property on the Aurora side."
How dare a for-profit company make a profit!
"7)The "new" Geauga Lake, being only a waterpark, no longer competes with Cedar Point."
No, just with one of Cedar Point's most important assets in retaining guests for multiple day stays. If you subscribe to this theory that CF is involved in a clever plan to eliminate competition by buying and keeping the competition open for as long as possible, why would you give anyone living east of Sandusky a reason to not stay at Cedar Point and enjoy Soak City?
"(8) Those rides stripped out of the park account for a significant fraction of "new" investment in CF's other parks for 2007, 2008, and probably 2009 seasons."
Damn businesses, making practical business decisions... *** Edited 10/3/2007 4:07:13 AM UTC by slithernoggin***
Life is something that happens when you can't get to sleep.
--Fran Lebowitz
RatherGoodBear said:
^ And here we thought Fahrenheit was the blue and orange colored thing with the fastest steepest drop in the country. :) Go Phils!Here's what I'm not following-- people are saying that the economy of the area has dropped and that it's not capable of sustaining an amusement park. On the other hand, a number of posters are talking about using the vacated land to create an upscale marketplace or condos.
So if NE Ohio is full of unemployed mullet-heads on meth who can't afford a park ticket, who's going to be sipping the $8 lattes while shopping for $300 shoes?
Because we live in a materialistic society of hell, where people would mortgage out their lives so they can look rich, that's why. It's about the things not the experiences. Amusement Parks are experiences, people don't want to pay for those much anymore, and when they do, it'll be to some sort of fluff entertainment, not a family experience.
GL is in the grey, it's not back and white "CF PLANNED IT ALL ALONG!" and "CF just made the decision 10 minutes ago." They knew the writing on the walls, why else would they not fix Villain? Why else would they not replace two huge draws for the park? Yet again, questions we can't answer.
Lord Gonchar said:
Could it be that amusement parks don't mean nearly as much to people as we like to think they do in our little enthusiast bubble? I suspect there's more than a nugget of truth there too.
What was my point again? ;)
I agree with this. When I was my daughters age, 17, we went to GL a few times a summer, CP at least twice and CLP a few times. We saved out money and went on day trips.
Teens these days don't seem to do that. My girlfriends 16 yr old son would rather play his Wii instead of going to a park.
I don't understand it, but that's the way it is.
Great Lakes Brewery Patron...
-Mark
(1) They stripped out many marquee rides.
Whose cost/rider was far too high to justify.
(2) While not replacing them with anything.
See above.
(3) They gutted the marketing department.
That hadn't done a very good job.
(4) While putting negligible dollars into advertising.
True. However, it could be argued that they couldn't justify the expense, given the park's (lack of) success. Even though they might recognize that ads will generate a ceratin amount of revenue, it might not have been enough to justify it in the first place.
(5) They specifically pulled out or left abandoned every attraction fronting Route 43. When folks at the gas station across the street think the park is closed, that is indicative of a self-destruction mission at work.
That's nonsensical.
(6) Building the new waterpark allows CF to sell every last acre of highly valuable property on the Aurora side.
So? They rearranged the park to increase its value. This means nothing.
(7)The "new" Geauga Lake, being only a waterpark, no longer competes with Cedar Point.
I've mention GL to several of my friends (in SE Michigan) over the years, and even moreso now that it's closed. Do you know how many knew of the park? Zero. GL never competed with CP. Not ever.
(8) Those rides stripped out of the park account for a significant fraction of "new" investment in CF's other parks for 2007, 2008, and probably 2009 seasons.
What would you prefer they do with them?
(9) In an interview from early this year, Kinzel suggests that coaster lovers will come to Cedar Point, while Geauga Lake will be more of a waterpark. This statement alone suggests the plans were in the works at least as of that time.
By all accounts (aside maybe from yours), the water park seems to have always been the bigger draw, though I've never been to GL/WWK.
(10) RWB suffers a derailment. Nothing is done to repair it in the remaining 2 1/2 months in the season.
Son of Beast was closed after its incident. And yet it and PKI still exists. *** Edited 10/3/2007 1:21:56 PM UTC by djDaemon***
Geauga Lake spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on marketing this year. That's a fact. I don't know how you consider that "negligible."
The "marketing department" used to consist of a director of marketing, two sales people and a PR rep. It made sense to combine these with Cedar Point's marketing people for efficiency's sake, and it worked pretty well. Besides, most of the outward marketing was handled by the agency anyway (as is the case with Cedar Point).
And here's a recap: Geauga Lake, going as far back as the introduction of The Wave and Turtle Beach, always built its greatest success and growth on the back of its water attractions.
I can't believe you keep bringing up the competition thing. Not only is it "up surd" (;)) to suggest that being paid from the right is better than being paid from the left, instead of being paid from both sides, but Cedar Point had two of its best years ever the same time Six Flags did (2000 and 2001). And that second point is irrelevant anyway because of the first point. Someone brought up the CVS analogy, how it doesn't matter which one gets your money, provided both pull their own weight.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind (as it seems people have picked their position by now and are not about to change it), I just felt it was a well-worded piece that touches upon what I tried to touch upon a while back, but perhaps a little better than the way I said it. Just food for thought, and nothing more. I think.
''It stinks,'' she said. ''We didn't get to say goodbye. We didn't get one last hurrah. We didn't get to ride on the Big Dipper one last time. I think people need closure. We didn't get to look back at the park and, you know 'Bye.' The kids didn't get to do that.
Waaahhhh..... cry me a freaking river. It's a business people. Doesn't anyone get that? How many times does it need to be drilled into one's head? Just read this thread and at least 25 people will tell you the same thing. It's a fact that must be accepted, so this person should tell their snot-nosed brat of a child that GL is no more because as I have said before: it's a business decision, get over it, and Cedar Fair doesn't owe your sorry ass, the people of Akron or anyone in Northeast Ohio a damn thing.
There, does that fit in with the angry attitude that so many people are displaying?
Ray P.
1) Cedar Fair did NOT shell out $145MM to shut down a competing park. Management's failure to fully realize that the departure of Sea World as an attendance draw doomed any plan turn to around Geauga Lake is costing them money (in revenue, asset write-downs and lost of unit price) and damages their reputation among the investment community. You can be certain management is truly embarrassed about this situation; efforts to put positive spin on this reflects that embarrassment, and is not to "cover up" a sinister plan or conspiracy to close the rides.
2) Geauga Lake's financial performance - be it a loss, or just an inferior return on investment - was an acceptable situation - until the purchase of Paramount Parks leveraged up the Cedar Fair balance sheet. There's very little margin for financial error now.
3) Like it or not, Geauga Lake was doomed the moment Anheuser-Busch decided that Sea World was done in Ohio.
No, merely illustrating a greater problem with an anecdote familiar on this site. A lot of people in the region were confused by the sale and name change. Having little marketing and a facade full of stripped out or abandoned attractions certainly didn't help.
"No, just with one of Cedar Point's most important assets in retaining guests for multiple day stays. If you subscribe to this theory that CF is involved in a clever plan to eliminate competition by buying and keeping the competition open for as long as possible, why would you give anyone living east of Sandusky a reason to not stay at Cedar Point and enjoy Soak City?"
As has been mentioned here before, outdoor waterparks compete in a smaller area than amusement parks. While GL and CP did have a fair amount of overlapping base, SC and WWK have much less.
djDaemon said: "I've mention GL to several of my friends (in SE Michigan) over the years, and even moreso now that it's closed. Do you know how many knew of the park? Zero. GL never competed with CP. Not ever."
You're absolutely correct! GL doesn't pull from Michigan. Here's the breakdown, as I understand. CP's largest market is Detroit. It's second largest market is Cleveland. GL's largest market is Cleveland. So eliminating GL's competition improves CP's secondary market.
Jeff said: "Geauga Lake spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on marketing this year. That's a fact. I don't know how you consider that "negligible.""
Odd. I probably watch as much TV as the next guy (okay, probably a little less). This year I saw numerous Cedar Point commercials featuring Maverick, Halloweekends, and more general themed ads on Cleveland stations. Guess how many Geauga Lake commercials I saw in the same time frame? Exactly zero. I don't know where those hundreds of thousands of dollars are going. Maybe they're advertising in Bulgaria or something. But it sure ain't in Geauga Lake's primary market.
"And here's a recap: Geauga Lake, going as far back as the introduction of The Wave and Turtle Beach, always built its greatest success and growth on the back of its water attractions."
That statement's debatable. Yes, GL has had a waterpark in some format or other since the eighties. But to suggest that those attractions eclipsed the success of additions such as RWB, Texas Twister, Serial Thriller, Head Spin, et al., is a bit dubious IMO.
I certainly can't prove that Cedar Fair bought Geauga Lake with the intention of closing it. I'm not entirely convinced myself. I'm guessing it was always Plan 'B', at the very least. On the flip side, people on the other side of this debate can't prove that CF has been honest and honorable in its actions either.
All I'm trying to show is that this viewpoint has a legitimate logical, albeit circumstantial basis, and shouldn't be dismissed as the construction of a few cranks and fanboys. That's all.
My author website: mgrantroberts.com
1. The asset proves a good investment and things are peachy.
2. The asset proves a bad investment and you get rid of it.
Am I missing something? Sure closing the park was Plan B. What else would they have done? And, if they had every intention of keeping WWK open, why would they sell the park to any other company?
Everything that has been done, in my opinion, makes perfect business sense. Do I like it? Absolutely not. I actually dreamed about Geauga Lake the other day as if I still worked there which tells me I'm still pretty emotional about the closing.
But, the idea that an amusement park should be treated more like a community institution along the lines of public parks or libraries is ridiculous.
Setting the whole "business" aspect aside for just a minute, how can one compare an old amusement park that has been a part of the lives of millions of people to the local Target or Disney Store? I don't blame people for making a big deal over that kind of decision being made, and considering that an old amusement park means something to more people than a generic retail outlet, it makes sense that a company like Cedar Fair would be wise to be a little more cautious when deciding to close a park. Did they really do everything they could? Some believe they did, others are certain they didn't and still others lie somewhere in the middle, and it's not just weepy-eyed coaster enthusiasts comprising the latter two groups.
Many have drawn comparisons to what Art Modell did with the Browns. Whether or not you think that comparison is valid (not sure I do, by the way), consider that Modell was dealing with a well-loved local institution, much like Geauga Lake. Modell knew he was going to catch crap for making that decision. Obviously it didn't stop him, but that doesn't mean criticisms directed at him weren't justified. He took away something that people loved. That's a tough one to get over.
Which brings me back to my question: Why is an amusement park any different from a public park or a library? Or anything that serves as a cornerstone of the community, for that matter?
One, Cedar Fair knew from the initial purchase that GL was going to eventually close, or become a Waterpark only so as to not compete with CP.
- or -
Two, Cedar Fair had every intention of running GL as its own park independent of CP, but going after a slightly different demographic so as to not compete with CP.
I think the second one is the more accurate statement, up until the Paramount purchase. I think this has not been as profitable a venture as CF planned, and I think they are hurting financially just a bit.
The only problem I have with CF is the way they handled the closing. I think warning could have been given to the public about the closing. CF made the same blunder last off-season when they put season passes on sale w/o announcing the removal of three rides.
Now the one thing I find funny, is that the people that are defending the decision by CF to close GL, are basically admiting that CF made collossal blunders either in the purchase or handling of GL.
If I was a CF stockholder, I would be quite unhappy with current events, and I think that is evident in the stock price.
I am starting to wonder if CF has not bitten off more than they can chew in regards to the Paramount purchase. To cut a whole park to save costs is a pretty big decision, I wonder what will be next on the CF chopping block?
Closed topic.
