Continued: Cedar Fair announces Geauga Lake will be water park only
The "marketing department" used to consist of a director of marketing, two sales people and a PR rep. It made sense to combine these with Cedar Point's marketing people for efficiency's sake, and it worked pretty well. Besides, most of the outward marketing was handled by the agency anyway (as is the case with Cedar Point).
So why was the efficient, combined department located at CP?
I mean more of either park's sales come from Cleveland than from Sandusky. Probably more media $$$ are spent in the Cleveland market than in the Toledo market.
For efficiency's sake, shouldn't CP's marketing have been merged into GL rather than vice versa?
This Isn't A Hospital--It's An Insane Asylum!
Jeff said:
Is that why Canada's Wonderland, which I believe has the highest attendance in the company, is getting the biggest ride this year?
Unless I'm mistaken, Behemoth was two years in the planning (or that's what I remember promotional materials at the park stating) which would have predated CF's acquisition.
-'Playa
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Until recently, Detroit was the bigger market. Why would they work out of Cleveland and take the expense of moving more than a dozen people, not counting outside sales?
If the group sales people of CP & GL should be combined why work out of Sandusky, which probably has far fewer sales for either park than Detroit or Cleveland?
When the groups you are trying to do business with are in Cleveland (or Detroit) but not Sandusky why don't you combine where the customers are?
This Isn't A Hospital--It's An Insane Asylum!
If ROI is the only thing to base our entire existence on, then why not get rid of all those silly public parks and museums taking up all that valuable space in our communities? Replace them with condos and boutiques that will put some money into the town coffers. That college campus?-- too much grass. Buildings should be spaced no more than 10' apart, just enough for people to squeeze through. How about you business experts run for office in your hometown on that platform and let us know how you do?
For the great business decision people are claiming the closing of GL is, the market didn't react too warmly. The stock dropped from over $25 to around $23.70 within a few days of the announcement (it's rebounded somewhat since). Apparently not too many people were thinking about all the O&M bucks being saved. I guess that's something only enthusiasts think about as well.
What do you think would have happened if CF didn't buy the park from SF? Why not just let it sit there awhile-- and let SF have to keep pouring bucks into it? Better yet, why not let it drag SF even further until THEY are the ones to have to close the park? Maybe because of this entertainment company a few hours southeast? Maybe CF never wanted the park, but they wanted a competitor running it even less.
The stock dip and rebound is exactly what you would expect when a decision like this is announced. First there is an overreaction followed by a calming of the nerves when everyone thinks things through.
If CF didn't buy the park perhaps someone else would have. But, I doubt it would have been another theme park company. I suspect it would have been some private firm that was looking to do what CF eventually did. Liquidate the assets and redevelop the land (or sell for redevelopment).
As for potential suitors other than Cedar Fair...who do you think that might have been? It wasn't going to be Disney or Anheuser-Busch...two of the major players. It wasn't going to be a company that runs mini-golf/gokart tracks. If anyone watched Cedar Fair and Six Flags both fail at their attempts and said to themselves, "hey...we can do it" then I would argue that would have been a company that jumped WAY in over their heads and might not have lasted as long as either of them did.
While there is a limited outcry amongst enthusiast sites, where is the outcry in Ohio? I'm not there but I don't see any serious coverage in the Plain Dealer or even in any of the local papers. Like it or not, it seems that there is a dull thud of indifference...which is why the park is now closed to begin with.
As stated before, I'm not supporting the sterilization of American commercialization. I just understand why it happens.
Absent a severe public outcry (see Browns or Cedar Point via 1950's in the link above), you cannot stop the phenomenon. There are not enough people who care about GL. This may sadden you (me too), but it is the truth.
The worst part of this truth for enthusiasts is that more people care about Cheesecake Factory and Cold Stone Creamery that the Big Dipper. You can blame companies all you want...but the people really only get what they themselves support.
I'll say it again...Cedar Point's location is prime real estate for a hefty return on investment not possible by running a seasonal amusement park. The question is whether enough people would get pissed (as the apparently did in the 1950's) to block a movement to shutter some (all?) amusements and replace them with Old Navy.
The prior paragraph is not something I want to see happen...but rather an observation of trends...and possibilities. There is a little something in that paragraph to piss off both sides of this debate. I just observe and commentate.
In conclusion and in my opinion only...
Should it be only about ROI...nope!
Is it almost always about ROI...yep!
If there is no room for anything that doesn't make money, shouldn't we get rid of land that doesn't? Why have public land at all when it could be sold to someone who could make money putting up condos or malls? Why not buy every last remaining square inch of farmland-- it makes a pittance compared to what an office building could? It only follows with what you guys are saying, not that I'd expect you to comprehend.
You never answered my question, yahoo. I asked why CF jumped on the purchase so quickly. Why didn't they let SF stew for awhile and see if the price came down? I'm not convinced $145 million is a steal considering what the other SF parks have gone for. That indicates to me they either really wanted the park or wanted to make sure nobody else got it.
I'm not from Ohio either, but I've read at least 6 linked articles from the Plain Dealer on this and other sites. I'm not sure what constitutes serious coverage. But from what I've seen here, any opinion contrary to that of the "know it all crowd's" requires written affidavits by at least 70% of the population, years of scientific study by several leading universities and the Good Housekeeping Seal of approval. Even then, it still counts for less than their "observations."
RGB:
If ROI is the only thing to base our entire existence on, then why not get rid of all those silly public parks and museums taking up all that valuable space in our communities? Replace them with condos and boutiques that will put some money into the town coffers.
Simple. Supply and demand. You'll eventually reach a breaking point where more condos and boutiques don't make sense financially.
You could argue the reverse as well - if amusement parks are so great for the community, then why isn't every community one big amusement park...or at the very least why doesn't every community have one?
JRS:
The worst part of this truth for enthusiasts is that more people care about Cheesecake Factory and Cold Stone Creamery that the Big Dipper. You can blame companies all you want...but the people really only get what they themselves support.
Bingo!
The overall theme here seems to be exactly what I said on the last page:
Gonch:
I dunno, but why does it continually happen? There's not amusement parks everywhere, but there sure are plenty of places to buy $8 lattes and $300 shoes.If anything it seems lately amusement parks are disappearing at an alarming rate while upscale shopping and condos are being built at an equally alarming rate.
Somebody must know something we don't.
Could it be that amusement parks don't mean nearly as much to people as we like to think they do in our little enthusiast bubble? I suspect there's more than a nugget of truth there too.
Maybe there's a segment of people who would never consider $30 for a day at the park, but stroll the walkways of the latest upscale retail area sipping $8 lattes and occasionally buying the $300 shoes?
Perhaps it's several little things that add up to one big one. I say that a lot, I think, but it seems like when any good ol' discussion pops up that everyone is looking for an absolute, easy and singular answer.
"The answer is 10!" is often a battle cry.
I think most times the answer is 2+2+2+2+2
So to sum it up:
If ROI is the only thing to base our entire existence on, then why not get rid of all those silly public parks and museums taking up all that valuable space in our communities?
Because it's not that simple. :)
(and yes, I understand the contradiction in my final answer and my opening line in the post :) )
Because that's where the park is! Not to mention it's in the middle of the two biggest markets it serves. When sales people aren't selling, what do you think they're doing? They're in the park looking after their customers. The rest of the marketing team is in the park every day, and as is the case at any company, they meet with other people at the company.
Captain Hawkeye said:
If the group sales people of CP & GL should be combined why work out of Sandusky, which probably has far fewer sales for either park than Detroit or Cleveland?
None of this is evidence of abandonment for Geauga Lake.
Except that if it were true, said development would have happened already around the bay, and it hasn't. There aren't jobs to support that kind of economy in Sandusky because it's a tourist economy.
Jeffrey R Smith said:
I'll say it again...Cedar Point's location is prime real estate for a hefty return on investment not possible by running a seasonal amusement park.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
The reason that it made sense for Cedar Fair to purchase the park for the price was because the thinking was that Cedar Fair would be able to cross promote GL and CP to people to get multiple days worth of visits out of them. While I don't think it was publicly talked about, I remember sites like this one talking about the possibility of busses from one park to the other park, ticket / hotel combo deals and so on.
It sounded like it could be a huge win for Cedar Fair, because as was pointed out -- Cedar Fair also did very good the years that Six Flags did well. The idea, at least the one that I got from it all, was that part of the reason that Cedar Fair did so well was because there were two competing venues both building big new rides and attractions, so if you wanted to go to a large park, it made sense to visit the Cleveland / Sandusky area and get in two parks.
Keeping the animals at GL would have been a perfect way for Cedar Fair to convince people to visit both parks. Even without them, they could have promoted the two as two world class parks for one stay and worked something out.
Cedar Fair never came through with much of anything in the way of cross promotion. That was a complete waste. If they had tried and it failed to gain any attention or profits, fine. But they didn't try.
Oh, and before anyone says that it wouldn't work -- look at Disney who purposely built two parks side by side in LA, and who has four (more if you count waterparks) in Flordia. It encourages overnight stays, hotel bookings, and so on. To promote this further, Disney gives hotel people perks, and has it set up so you never need to leave their property.
Obviously, Cedar Fair had a different situation with a different distance between the two parks, but I don't think that two parks that are relatively similar could have worked side by side. I do think that two relatively similar parks with differentiating factors could have worked, even with an hour drive between them.
Then, Cedar Fair misses an opportunity to mine GL for a final season, and instead doesn't announce that they are closing it until after the season is over and the rides are already coming down.
I don't blame or fault Cedar Fair for deciding to close the park. I do however blame and fault Cedar Fair for:
1) Overpaying for a property
2) Misunderstanding the importance of the animals to that property
3) Not making a good attempt to cross promote the parks
4) Not attempting to promote the past year as the last year for rides at the park and getting the benefit of the bump in attendance due to nostalgia factor because of it.
I'd also like to point out that since the park was closed when the announcement was made, it makes it harder for the general public to complain since they don't all know about it yet. I don't watch the local news more than once a week. I doubt that the closure made the front page of the newspaper. It didn't make national headlines. I'm actually surprised by the amount of attention it got.
Clearly, that is what Cedar Fair was after. The quieter that GL closes, the less that the investment community realizes how much money was blown at the park for no reason, and the less the general public gets angry at the company for it. Unlike Astroworld, Cedar Fair didn't have someone like the government to easily blame the closure on, so it would have looked horrible in the publics eyes.
And Cedar Point won't benefit from attendance at all next year because of it. For every person they get from the closure, I'm sure that one additional person will not visit because they don't want to drive to Sandusky just for one park, when before there were two relatively nearby.
Again, that's my two cents. I'll miss the park from my one visit there yes, but I'm also not so crazy as to think that the company owes it to me to keep it open. In fact, at this point, the company probably owes it to me (as a shareholder) to close it. It's just the series of decisions that brought us to that point which leaves me with no belief in the management of Cedar Fair right now.
Go back and read my prior post on page 9 to see the distinction.
wahoo skipper said:
RGB...Cedar Fair isn't a government entity. They don't have a responsibility to the people.
I had to read the posts that lead up to this one numerous times and I keep arriving at the same thought.
Are you serious? (Please keep in mind that isn't sarcasm or an attack, it's just the sound of complete and total shock.)
See, this is where I get lost in this conversation... where I have a hard time buying into the idea that a corporation has no obligations other than the stockholders. How can it be said that any company doesn't have a responsibility to the people? Without "the people", the company wouldn't exist in the first place. I'm not applying this to any specific instance (like the Geauga Lake topic we've been discussing for almost two weeks), it's more of a general statement. Companies would be nothing without customers... the people.
And I totally get what RGB is getting at. If every single thing in this world were about maximizing profit and ROI, this world would be a pretty boring place.
The 01 season may have been SFI's pinnacle of running the parks under premier's ownership.They splurged on some 18 coasters that season<at least six didn't run reliably> & as a result they couldn't afford to continue adding rides at all of their parks,thus plunging us into the SFMM,SFGRAM,SFGRADV get all the rides & nobody else does trend that has since continued ever since the 2002 season.
That was IMO the beginning of the end for SFI,and SFWOA/GL in particular & that trend will continue because the parks that go upwards of five years or more with no new ride investments WILL see a decline in attendance as a result.
thecoasterguy: Cedar Fair sure as hell didn't overpay for the property. They'll get that money back, and yet they get to keep the rides (sending them elsewhere) and a water park to operate. Mark my words, the land sales will make back their $145 million. And even the Kenston school district will win when all that land is developed into something far more valuable, and therefore spreading out the tax burden.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
It's because profits were starting to dry up and its your shareholders who determine the value of your company. Without no one investing into the company, the company would shrivel faster yet via decline in stock value and being unable to secure loans than by suffering a drought of consumer purchasing.
Businesses owe nothing to nobody except those who have a claim on the organization's profits.
wahoo skipper said:
If CF didn't buy the park perhaps someone else would have. But, I doubt it would have been another theme park company. I suspect it would have been some private firm that was looking to do what CF eventually did. Liquidate the assets and redevelop the land (or sell for redevelopment).As for potential suitors other than Cedar Fair...who do you think that might have been? It wasn't going to be Disney or Anheuser-Busch...two of the major players. It wasn't going to be a company that runs mini-golf/gokart tracks. If anyone watched Cedar Fair and Six Flags both fail at their attempts and said to themselves, "hey...we can do it" then I would argue that would have been a company that jumped WAY in over their heads and might not have lasted as long as either of them did.
I know that Kennywood Entertainment was interested in buying Geauga Lake (and the rest of the Funtime chain) just before Premier Parks bought them. Of course, GL was a lot smaller then, and Sea World was going 'full steam' under A-B management. If KE had bought the park then, I would imagine that it would have been operated and developed more in the lines as the other Kennywood properties are. Kennywood would have no interest in Sea World, so the successful operating synergy would most likely continue between the two parks. My guess is GL would have turned into Cleveland's 'Kennywood' under their ownership.
But, if GL were offered to Kennywood for the same money in 2004 as it was sold to CF, I seriously doubt that they would have been interested. The $145 million price tag would have been too much for them, not to mention how risky the venture would have been given Six Flags failure with the combined parks as SF Worlds of Adventure. I seriously doubt that Kennywood was even remotely interested in the park for that price.
The only other players outside of CF that might have possibly looked into acquiring SFWoA could have been A-B (doubtful since they just unloaded Sea World a few years earlier), Blackstone, and Herschend. I'm sure that other companies like PARC, if around then, might have also looked into it. If I recall, Herschend was the biggest player interested in acquiring the Paramount parks outside of CF. If they were looking into buying that chain, I'm certain they would have had the resources to buy GL. Somehow, I could see them turning the park around, just by the quality of their shows, theming, and overall operations excellence. Alas, that never happened. I don't even know if they were even remotely interested or not in acquiring Geauga Lake. But, if they were possibly interested, they might have been able to make it work just by their excellent reputation for the operations of their other facilities. (But, then again, maybe not. I guess we'll never know now.) I do look forward to their new ownership of Wild Adventures, though! It will be interesting to see what directions they take that park in the next few years...
As for Geauga Lake, I will miss the park. It just got too big, too fast with the wrong management. If only Kennywood had bought the park before Premier, something tells me that we wouldn't be having this discussion today. Again, we'll never know...
It's really that simple, and it's really that cold-blooded.
Dick Kinzel made an enormous mistake overpaying for Geagua lake, and an even bigger one overpaying for the Paramount parks. He has destroyed the company and loaded it with so much debt that it is becoming Six Flags right before our eyes.
Closed topic.
