Concern for New Orleans, and fellow Buzzers

Very well written. :)

I'm sure we're just on opposite sides of this and that's cool.

---

Again, I do not absolve the city/state. How can one call for a mandatory evac of a city and not, at the very least provide a method of evac for the sick and infirm in the hosptitals who you *knew* had no means of transport. How do you not plan for a line of emergency communications? You simply cannot leave such a large group of people without any sense of order and information. And how in God's good name do you establish a shelter without the basic provisions of food and drinking water for those you which to shelter. That was simply despicable!

---

Exactly! And I'd follow that with the thinking that the feds response wouldn't have seemed as inadequate had many of these things been done correctly in the first plase. Had those (and other) issues been properly addressed, the need for the feds to react quickly wouldn't have been nearly the same.

Accoring to a report I just heard on Fox News in the event of a disaster your suppose to govern from the bottom up. Meaning the New Orleans mayor should request resouces from the Governor and the Governor should request assistance from the President. If you think about other disasters in the United States, your hear about states asking for a city or county to be declared Federal Disaster Areas, making them available for Federal Assistance and Funds.

Only the Governor can order the states National Guard troops to backup local law enforcement and the Nation's Armed Forces can't act in a law enforcement capacity.

I agree with 2Hostyl about the levees, they've been predicting for years a major hurricane would kill the city of New Orleans. I think their is plenty of blame to go around for not taking care of that situation, including Congress.

I also think the fact the levees didn't break till after the hurricane was over lured a lot of officials into a false sense of security.

SFZIP already gave it to us on the last page but thanks anyway.

2Hostyl,

In brief,

1) Where was Kanye West's concern the week before when he was partying at the MTV awards parties just hours after Katrina passed south of Miami headed ultimately toward the Gulf Coast?

2) The levees didn't just suddenly become deficient after Bush's inauguration. No president OF EITHER PARTY for decades budgeted any money for the levees to be raised, fixed, extended, etc. The previous administration had a large budget surplus; maybe that's because they left many projects such as this unfunded.

3) Even if money had been budgeted for levee repairs in 2003, there is no way on God's green earth that construction would even be started as of August 2005, let alone completed.

4) It has been argued that the construction of the levees helped destroy the coastal wetlands that would have been a first defense against a storm. By cutting off periodic floodwaters and sediment, it cut off the wetlands' source of water and soil. Landfall would have been made further out, and the intensity of the storm already would have been lessened by the time it reached the metropolitan area.

Also, the presence of a levee constricts the width of flow when it prevents a river from overflowing its banks. But what it also does is makes the flow deeper within the channel and actually causes more flooding further upstream of the levee. This argument was made after the Mississippi River floods of '93(?)

Raising the height of earthen levees also requires widening them at the base. Roughly 6 times the height. So raising a levee 10 feet means you have to make the base at least 60 feet wider. In many areas, this would mean taking private land, and possibly displacing residents from existing homes, existing businesses. etc. I can assure you that any plan to enlarge the levee system would have been challenged in court by landowners and environmental groups.

Should be noted that no president since Camille (the relevant time-frame for the levees) had experienced a hurricane season like last year...it COULD have been noted as *predictive* that something like Katrina could come along...

And, yes, there's PLENTY of "fault-finding" for State and Local officials everywhere in the Gulf area, not JUST President Bush...but IMO, he gets a heaping helping, since none of the state or local officials had the wherewithal at their disposal that HE has...but as noted, we're already invested heavily in protecting our oil interests in the Mideast...

Getting AWAY from *blame* and toward "what next"...

As noted by Jimmy Carter earlier, hopefully we'll come together for increased PREPAREDNESS for natural disasters in a fashion similar to that which we've become "more ready" in case of acts of terrorism...the shame is that so many individuals have to pay the ultimate price BEFORE we can recognize the dangers...

And I *do* believe that had the Storm hit Martha's Vineyard instead of New Orleans, that the Federal response would've been more immediate...as much as there is *definitvely* a racial component involved in the delays of getting relief, it really is *socio-economic* moreso that the color of the victims' skin...as always, IMO, YMMV, etc.

After talking to alot of the evacuees this weekend I can tell pass on a few things.

A lot were prepared with stocks of food and water that were lost when the flood waters came in the homes.

The water came in the houses very quickly.

A lot of people could not swim or had family members that could not swim.

A lot of people did not want to wade down streets that were choked with bodies.

Many people at the Superdome and Convention center went there not during the hurricane but when the floodwaters hit. those were the last instructions they received before power went out as refuges of last resort.

Many were stuck on overpasses and roofs for 3 or more days.

Most were in no condition to walk out themselves. It was hot and there was little water to drink, a march like that would have killed many.

A lot of people would have evacuated before the storm if they had the means to, but they had no car.

Maybe they could have tried to evacuate the city before the storm, but they only had 36 hours preperation, this storms track changed greatly. Also, they wonder why CNN was able to get to them but relief was not.

I am not pointing fingers here, just adding some insight.

I don't know about the storms track changing greatly. From what this article says, officials were monitoring the storm, knew it was heading for one of the golf coast states, but in the end, just didn't have enough time to prepare to perform an evacuation that could take 50 hours to complete.

http://tinyurl.com/e33fn *** Edited 9/6/2005 11:31:41 AM UTC by coasterguts***

Wow. Just...wow.

I sign back in after a nice, relaxing weekend and still can't quite believe what I read elsewhere on the board this morning. Maybe you won't either.

---

TeknoScorpion said:
Well, John, as long as they don't name it 'Hurricane' anything so as not to upset the PC people.

---

---

Michael Darling said:
Something Corporate has a song called Hurricane.

I don't think they should sing it anymore.

---

I can understand little snide remarks like that after a reconstructed New Orleans celebrates a great Mardi Gras --to say nothing of Biloxi and other cities and other states recovering...but right now? When we still don't know the full impact of the losses in assets or human lives?

And this was in a thread about Camp Snoopy. Nobody even brought that up. Here, see for yourselves.

-'Playa

RGB:

1. What Kanye was doing is insignificant to me as he was not in a position where the protection of citizens was strickly under his control. As an American citizen, Kanye is entiled to an opinion. As elected/appointed officials, the feds/state/locals have a *responsibility* to protect their citizens.

2. First off, I didnt say that it wasnt a problem spanning several presidents. However, I hope that this is only *your* excuse and not one that the current administration would use. I dont care that the predecessors failed, President Bush, if he felt that the funding was needed, could have taken initative and got behind the cause. He was able to lead Congress into erasing the "marriage penalty", approve across the board tax cuts, and pass the "No Child Left Behind" act. He has lead on those cause he felt were important. It is apparent to me that the NOLA area levees were not a high priority. Therefore, he too is cuplable.

In engineering, when evaluating a failure, one looks at the entire series of events. Most often, it is a string of occurances any ONE of which if it would not have happened the disaster would not occur. In this case President Bush is also a link in this chain.

3) So because it could not be finished by today there is no reason to begin? Ludicrous! There were several ongoing projects addressing the levees that were occuring at the time of the storm. These were underfunded.

4) Work it out, or dont have people live there! If your going to have people living in a city in immient danger of a natural disaster, you damn sure better have a plan to protect them when that disaster occurs. If that plan is to depend on the levees, then make the levees able to withstand the storms. If the plan is evacuation, then provide for an ordely evacuation. If the plan is shelter, then have ample life sustaining provisions. No one in the chain is free from blame. THEY ALL F-ED UP!. If you do not believe that, then you and I have no more to talk about, because I will not be persuaded otherwise.

When the city is de-watered, power restored and re-building has begun with gusto, I'd like to see Nagin, Blanco, Brown, Chertoff, and Pres. Bush all in the same room answering questions - tough questions. I want to see who is going to step up and say "We didnt do enough" and who will say "They didnt do enough".
lata, jeremy

P.S. If you can take away someone's property to build a freaking hotel, why not to protect a whole city. ;) (see. Supreme Court)

I may be the only here that thought this, but the whole time I watched the footage on CNN, I kept thinking that this is going to make one hell of an episode of Seconds From Diasaster.

Scooter: I *love* that show. I mean, I guess it's a tad morbid that I like something so much that usually has a devastating outcome, but I am so inspired by that show. What I really want to do in life is aircraft accident investigation. I hate that planes crash, but I am absolutely fascinated with the discovery of the root causes.

Hey Peabody,

I'm glad to hear that you guys are okay. Hope the wedding goes off without a hitch, I mean, uhh... with a hitch?

Its crazy how political this is all becoming, I'm done with it. To blame this all on one president, or should I say one person is simply amazing.

2Hostyl has it right, all three levels screwed up. Our tax dollars at work should now be fixing it.

~Rob Willi

It was finalized over the weekend that Halliburton, the company that Dick Cheney has been CEO of in the past and continues to have a shadowy--and highly lucrative relationship with--will be in charge of the Gulf Coast "cleanup" to the tune of untold billions. With Halliburton's and Bechtel's already criminal past, and current ongoing investigations into monetary mismanagement to the tune of billions of dollars in Iraq, doesn't anyone else find it odd that this company would even be CONSIDERED for this job?

What does this tell us, on a very basic level, about the President, Vice-President and how he conducts business? Is there anyone out there who is still holding on to some last shred in the original campaign promise of "I'm a uniter, not a divider."

And then, adding insult to injury, or throwing yet more salt into the open wounds of the people of New Orleans, that hag of a former First Lady actually had the gall to issue this statement:

Barbara Bush: “So Many Of The People In The Arena... Were Underprivileged Anyway, So This Is Working Very Well For Them”...Is it possible that she is signifying that life in the Astrodome is a move up for them? I'd like to see her and all of her possessions washed away in Kennebunkport and homeless--you think she'd utter such a callous, shrew-like statement?
Sorry, but I have no apathy or concern anymore for the uber-rich dilletantes running this country. King George and the plutocrats have got to go. The leadership vacuum should be apparent even to the hard-core right-wing. The guy is a total and utter embarrassment to America. He goes down to the affected region and the only thing he can think to say is: "Well, Trent Lott lost his house and we're going to rebuild it better than it was. I'm even going to be the first one to come sit on his porch." This is a man who lost his Speakership due to his rascist and misogynistic past and his activenegative commentary about black people. And that's who the President continues to align himself with? A known rascist. Those are the only people he can "hang" with in the aftermath of this devastation? Playing guitar and golf days after the calamity with no concern for the widespread and catastrophic, worst natural disaster your country has ever known??!!! This, after being on "vacay" for 5 weeks, the longest Presidential vacation in modern-day history. He is, if nothing else, an EMBARRASSMENT OF RICHES, isn't he? The gift that keeps on giving. I think the country is finally coming around, though. They won't be hoodwinked forever. Lowest. Presidential. Ratings. Of. Any. President. In. History. Honestly, he needs to be recalled. But, enough of him--he's the problem, not the solution.

As far as the city goes, I think the Mayor is quite a dude. It takes a lot of cajones to say the things he did last week and I, for one, am glad he did. They'd still be waiting for water and relief if it wasn't for him. Meanwhile, at least they are at a point now where they can start pumping the city out. I wonder how long the SFNO will have water and what kind of damage they sustained. Does anybody know?

BArry: Thanks for posting that link. the people here at work are floored she said that.
Man, I'm speechless...

Speaking of the Distinguished Gentleman from Mississippi on 8-31 Sen. Lott issued a press release where he said in part:

---

"President Bush and Vice President Cheney have shown tremendous generosity and leadership with their quick and very strong commitment to help Mississippians recover from Katrina," Senator Lott said. "I’m pleased to report that the Bush Administration stands ready to increase assistance to Mississippi as needed."

---

However, on 9-5 Sen Lott is quoted by nola.com as saying:

---

"

U.S. Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss., said that during a one-on-one meeting with Bush, he urged the president to authorize the immediate release of 20,000 trailers sitting idle in Atlanta. Lott said the Federal Emergency Management Agency has refused to ship the trailers until contracts are signed specifying exactly where they'll go in Mississippi.

Lott said FEMA and the Mississippi Emergency Management Agency, MEMA, are having jurisdictional squabbles.

"Mississippians are homeless, hungry and hurting," Lott said in a written statement. "FEMA and MEMA need to be saying 'yes' to Mississippi's needs, not 'no.'"

---

Doesnt look like that leadership is tricking down to the people who are "homelss, hungry and hurting" (great use of alliteration by the Senator :))

And speaking of Mr. Vice-President, where the heck is he? Isnt this one of those situations where you would expect to see him? Like while President Bush is in Mississippi shouldn't the vice-president be equally visible in Alabama or something?

One thing I do want to correct though is the notion that while on the ranch in Crawford the President was on "vacation". True, he was not physically in the West Wing, but it's not like he just stopped working. He still has tons of meetings and briefings just like @ 1600 Penn Av. Trust me, as someone who lives with someone who constructs briefings for someone to brief the President with, he aint making milk and cookies the whole time!

Feel free to question whether the work he is doing is effective or not, but it is a *fact* that this "vacation" is not a vacation like you or I would take.

We can always count on Barry for bringing crazy, extreme and, on occasion, humorous political views into the discussion.

I'm sure you were equally outraged when Halliburton provided similar work after Hurricane Andrew in 1992, three years before Dick Cheney headed the company? Good thing Halliburton didn't receive "no-bid" work while Bill Clinton was in office! ;)

You have a better company in mind to get the job done?

Good article here, echoing what Lord Gonchar said earlier.

*** Edited 9/6/2005 3:06:13 PM UTC by Gemini***

Try as you may, Gemini, and as hard as it is for you, regrettably, you can't blame Hurricane Katrina, or its aftermath, or its shoddy handling by Bush and Company. . .on Bill Clinton.

As much as you'd like to implicate Bill and Hillary planting sticks of TNT in the leavees in the dark of night, this DISTROUS PLANNING (as opposed to Disaster Planning) belongs squarely to your boys.

But maybe you feel like Barbara Bush and can identify with her sentiments.

Look, buddy, you can call me "crazy" or "extreme" all you want but people like you have a real problem with facts. I'll take you to that mat on Halliburton, six ways to Sunday, and you know what? You ain't getting up from the mat. Your weak defense of the Vice President holds no water with me: in point of fact, he's been involved with Halliburton and Kellogg, Brown and Root for over two decades. KBR has been in business with terrorist nations since George Senior and continues to negotiate lucrative business deals with them to this day. You call that "Amurrican"?? I call it grounds for treason.

Consider some of the following which a quick Google search will bring you on Halliburton and KBR alone. There are literally THOUSANDS of other articles which, variously, all deal with the same issue--corruption in these so-called "contractor" companies that are nothing more than corporate giant behemoths run amok. With friends like this bunch in the White House, they will continue to bilk the unwary, unsuspecting American taxpayer dry until. . .eventually, like we are seeing now, we become such a debtor nation (trillions and trillions) that we no longer function as a superpower. That's what George Bush has gotten you, friend. Maybe you can keep the dynasty going and vote for his brother in '08. Or George P. Or any one of the other 52 males they are grooming for the Presidency.

The facts will always, in the end, drown out pathetic whiners like you who are too scared to deal with the Real World that they hide behind web sites and blogs (and usually fake pseudonyms) to express their views. I won't be taking my valuable time, or a web site devoted to one of my great loves, roller coasters, to respond to you in kind again. If you have something further you'd like to express on the matter or would care to continue the debate off-line, feel free to e-mail me.

Meanwhile, I'm returning to my coaster threads and abandoning anything on here that even smacks of politics. The last thing I need right now, in view of the seriousness and contrite quality that should be observed here, is a HYSTERICAL DEMAGOGUE like you to deal with.

Take your right-wing zealotry and Bush ideology elsewhere.

Yes, we need some true compassionate conservatism because it sure as hell ain't coming from this President. He is a mockery, as you are, by defending him and the Vice-President, to the very concept of "compassion."

Barry J.

Here's your excerpt that I spoke of earlier.

Read it and weep. BJW

"Kellogg Brown & Root, the company chosen last month by the Pentagon to extinguish oil well fires in Iraq, has a long history of supporting the same terrorist regimes vilified by the Bush administration and on at least one occasion defrauded the United States government to the tune of $2 million, according to public documents.

Halliburton, headed by Dick Cheney before he became vice president, and it's KBR subsidiary did business with some of the world's most notorious governments and dictators - in countries such as Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Libya and Nigeria. The company has routinely skirted U.S. sanctions placed on these countries and lobbied the U.S. government to lift sanctions so it could set up new partnerships and create new business opportunities in these countries.

Charges of cronyism led the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers on Monday to open the job of putting out Iraqi oil well fires to other firms that will now bid for the multibillion -dollar contract and KBR would have to compete with other companies for the right to finish the job. The Army Corps of Engineers said it would seek new bidders to rebuild Iraq's oil infrastructure, considered the key to reviving that country's economy.

KBR and Halliburton have broken U.S. laws on numerous occasions while Cheney was chief executive and as far back as 1978. Moreover, the company inflated the price of some of its military contracts and defrauded the government."

Quoth Newsmax item: "This fact – which needs to be repeated and remembered – is that in our country, state and local governments have primary responsibility in dealing with local disasters."

What part of Katrina was "local"? New Orlenas was FAR from the only area impacted...South Florida got some, then Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and even the FL Panhandle got some...

Hurricanes, in this (arguable?) era of global warming, are NOT unforeseeable events...

Again, Bush is not solely to blame, not by a LONG stretch...but he sure deserves his FAIR share...

---

you can't blame Hurricane Katrina, or its aftermath, or its shoddy handling by Bush and Company. . .on Bill Clinton.

---

And how did I try that? Just because I mentioned the Clinton name? Is that name some sort of trigger for liberal attack dogs? You're the one making it sound like GWB used some secret weather machine for the sole purpose of granting Halliburton more work!

---

squarely to your boys.

---

"My boys?" Like I'm part of some secret conservative club? Lord Gonchar, why weren't you at last week's meeting?!

---

I call it grounds for treason.

---

And yet you still ignore the fact that Halliburton received billions while "other men" have been President. It sounds like such an evil company. Why have so many from both political parties given this organization so much work?

You never did offer a suggestion for a company who can do a better job.

---

hide behind web sites and blogs (and usually fake pseudonyms)

---

I didn't know I was anonymous! Maybe PointBuzz is just a cover for my vast right-wing conspiracy. Don't tell Jeff! But speaking of blogs, I'm surprised you don't have one. Your rants would fit right in.

You can say or quote whatever you want, but you still come off as a far left-wing zealot.

---

I won't be taking my valuable time, or a web site devoted to one of my great loves, roller coasters, to respond to you in kind again.

---

And CoasterBuzzers everywhere rejoiced!

Both the Mayor and Governor Blanco sent detailed and long letters of plea, stating that they would need to be considered in a "State of Emergency" on August 27, a full 48-hours PRIOR to the Hurricane even making landfall. These letters propel/trigger and immediately "indemnify" eveyone in the process; it is basically a forfeiture of your state and local rights and puts you immediately under the care and guidance of the federal/national overseers (FEMA, the President, the Vice-President, the Department of Homeland Security, etc, etc.).

All of those documents are available for review by searching the key players on Google.

I'm certain that Haley Barbour did the same thing in Mississippi, though I haven't researched it. The point is that the proper procedural steps were taken on the state and local levels but NOT on the federal ones. We should be asking the BIGGEST QUESTION OF ALL--HOW and WHY CAN THIS HAPPEN IN AMERICA? How can whoever is running this White House telegraph to all the world that we have basically look like a Third-World Country Overnight with no ability to take care of our poor and destitute????

I'm certain that there are many around the globe that think that America is no longer a superpower, due simply to the images that came screaming such out of New Orleans last week.

BJW