Classism and park demographics: whither the credit whore?
I will quote one part:
Many (most?) people don't do that. My wife and I were talking about this a few weeks ago... "Remember back when going to Hersheypark was a big event that we looked forward to for months... now it's not unusual to go there a few times a summer..."
Same here. We used to do KW every year. Then in 1995 we started visiting CP. People thought we were insane. It was such a 'special' thing for me and my wife. We'd look forward to it all year and talk about it for the rest of summer.
That represents the average, casual park-go'er, GP type and for those who yearly trip is to the local SF park, the difference in cost isn't going to change that special trip this year.
And while you describe that demographic as "many" or "most", I'd put a hard number on it and say I'd be surprised if the people who fit into that category represents less than 90% of park traffic.
As for the SF pass, I need to renew those quick because this may just be the last year they are essentially a free ride. In fact, as an enthusiast, that alone is reason enough for me to consider hitting more SF parks this year. At the very least, I'm not changing plans to exclude SF parks this year. If there's something of interest to me, I'm not shorting myself over a few bucks.
Still seems like a plan that's cutting out exactly the people SF intends to. (and I don't mean that in any derogatory way - SF seems to have clearly decided to shift to a "less sales at a higher margin" plan)
*** Edited 1/20/2006 9:16:49 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
In a sick and twisted way, IF this price increase does equal "less sales at a higher margin" and it does cut down on some of the people... and IF it were met with a little better efficiency in operations... resulting in reasonable lines (and not two hour marathons from hell), I would be actually MORE inclined to visit a Six Flags park... even with the higher price... than I was in the past.
The following is an opinion piece about fixing Six Flags for the better. Read at your own risk and save me the “it is too long” replies! You’ve been warned!
On the assumption that there is still enough cash flow to implement my ideas and without the benefit of opening the books…which may be an optimistic assumption given the debt load…i.e. I would not be surprised if this company is so broke that bankruptsy, or at the very least massive sell-offs are the only option! I will give my solutions… I feel qualified to have an opinion on this since as far as I can tell…I know the amusement park industry as well as at least Shapiro…no?
If I was in charge the first thing I would do is make everybody re-apply for their position at increased wages so I could weed out the slackers, keep the good ones, and attract better employees across the board. If there were union conflicts…I would bust them, as I do not want the stale union-dominated idea that length of time be the salary/bonus determination! If individual park unions were too strong to bust…I would shut that park down and sell the land! If I were unable to run a park with highly motivated employees that buy into my plan, then I would rather not have a park at all than to run one like…well a Six Flags! :-)
Instead…performance would dictate advancement! If anybody cringes at the thought…I ask you to look at Proctor and Gamble as my ideal guide. They are a non-union corporation that, at least in the past, has built up a good reputation among their own employees by treating them good, offering very fair compensation, and most importantly nice retirement opportunities tied to the company stock! I would offer a stock-sharing plan that gives employees a stake in the company! Any evaluations performed by the prior regime would be considered as useful as that toilet paper that Six Flags so often forgets to stock their restrooms with!
As an economic conservative…I would value good and higher paid employees over the current crop of malcontents! My scale would be higher than the local competition both in and outside of the amusement industry to assure the best possible chance of attracting high character employees! I would also treat my employees better than the competition to assure small turnover rates! In return for my generous salary offerings I would expect and demand that my employees perform at the highest possible levels of customer service and friendliness! I would provide incentives (bonuses) for jobs well done (faster loading cycles, going out of the way to help a disabled guest, etc)! Those who could not meet expectations would be replaced (another reason I want the unions out)! I would foster an attitude of lifelong opportunity within the company and offer opportunity for advancement to those who achieve!
I would put off the next 10-20 million dollar attraction as long as needed to spend that money on landscaping, staff training, security, information stands, etc! I would place emphases on security and adherence to rules! Lines would have monitoring (either live or camera) and jumping offenders would leave! Those who fought on my property would be prosecuted, etc! Break a rule…and there will be a consequence! I say this not to be a prick…but rather to assure that there is a safe and healthy family environment! I like the idea of a dual DJ/entertainer (Raptor used to do this) for the longer lines to entertain and be an eye in the sky! Attention to details like this would be the norm!
While six Flags will never be themed like Disney…they sure as heck would be as clean and cleaner than Disney! I would boost all kiddy area offerings and vastly increase characters walking around the park. I would have traveling entertainers like jugglers, Cowboy shoot-outs, and fire-eaters, etc! Not big time parades like Disney…but stuff that entertains throughout the park! Smaller scale stuff…but professionally implemented!
Now the BIG part of my turn-around plans…MARKETING! On the assumption that I would demand and achieve the superior employee service I so need to implement my turnaround…I would advertise the crap out of it! It would be the New Six Flags!
I would take Universal, Paramount, Cedar Fair, freaking Holiday World (if I could), and Disney to task (think Coke versus Pepsi). I would run an advertising touting increase staffing levels, fast ride loading cycles and a friendly atmosphere! I would have an advertisement that says something like…"Come to six Flags to see customer service like Disney used to provide.” I would lengthen the park hours and brag about how my park was open longer than theirs! I would emphasize that New Six Flags has the big coasters and thrills that the “other park” does not! I would offer a satisfaction guarantee (at least at first) of a good time or money refunded no questions!
I would make people want to come to New Six Flags and then I would deliver on the promise of a good time! I want them to “can’t wait” to visit again!
Now…the bad news for you whiny classism guys! :-) I would set prices at a supply/demand level that would maintain manageable crowds on ALL days! I would resist all urges to allow further people through the gates on busy days if this meant that my park could not show paying customers a good time! I would start with a simple weekend/holiday price that was possibly double what a Monday-Wed rate would be! Without the benefit of the books---I cannot give firm pricing (which would obviously differ from market to market)---But you can rest assure that my admission policies would be much higher than the present! I can only guess a season pass would be in the $400-$500 range if you wanted to visit more than the home park! Furthermore…home park pass prices would be tiered so as to charge more for those who want to come on weekends/holidays, etc!
My overall philosophy is in line with (I think Gonch and IF talked about this first---sorry if I missed you) the idea of taking $10 from one person rather than take $1 from 10 people! With my philosophy, I hope to provide a good time to those who come through the gate while at the same time limiting supply…thus by the very nature…increasing demand!
I’ve got a gazillion pricing ideas…some that I have shared on this very board---that is way outside the box! But I would not shy away from trying to implement whatever system maximized my profits and gave value to the shareholders. This may even include a changing admission rate as the park fills up throughout the day…or even a return to some sort of ticket system (hi tech of course)!
I’ve no time to write all my ideas…but there is a rough outline! I realize that a lot of what I said above relates better to the large (SFMM) parks in the chain! For the smaller parks I would do a lot of it the same…but of course market differently while still emphasizing old-fashioned customer service and a traditional feel! But rest assured…I would take Disney’s recent decline in customer service, park hours, etc to task and turn that into my benefit! I would utilize Disney’s reputation for good customer service (whether real or not) to remind everybody that New Six Flags does it better and Disney aint what it used to be! *** Edited 1/20/2006 10:01:28 PM UTC by Jeffrey R Smith***
Sorry, I totally disagree with the idea that "Enthusiast can't understand, or be the judge of the policy." Example even though I am an Coaster freak, I am still a dad, and know if for example I had a child that had a medical condition that required medication. And he needed his meds from the car; the last thing I would want to deal with is a SF jackass giving me a hard time about Re-Entry. I see a lawsuit in SF's future when a kid dies because dad or mom could not get back in one of their parks with meds.
I was honestly surprised that they generally agreed with it as well. I thought I'd be the only one.
I go back to what I said there. "The game has changed. Plan accordingly."
No one is going to die. Who in there right mind would refuse to leave the park and let their child die rather than just going to the car and saying, 'Screw it."
What do these people do when they go to a sporting event or concert? They plan accordingly.
Irrelevant in the end though as SF backed off with that one.
I'd be more surprised than not if the no-reentry policy doesn't reappear in '07, in NJ if not across the board...
I think the no-re-entry thing is well and truly dead at least for the main gate. I can understand parking lot pass-outs going away, but the no park re-entry is a non-starter and I think if the new Six Flags brass really watch their parks this year they will discover that it's a customer-friendly policy that costs them almost nothing to have (even in opportunity costs) and will cost them a fortune in goodwill to eliminate. Six Flags may not know that the policy is dead yet, but if they have any business smarts at all (and I assume they do; I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for the moment) they'll figure it out by this time next year.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
*** Edited 1/21/2006 2:39:15 PM UTC by Gemini***
Walt Schmidt - Co-Publisher, PointBuzz
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Gemini said:
Some people will accept anything. If Six Flags decided to start charing people to use the restroom, Gonch would just say, "go before you leave home."
I remember CLP having pay bathrooms.
"... we discovered that all kinds of companies, including big name firms such as Fidelity and Charles Schwab are competing for even the tiniest accounts... more companies seem to be recognizing the growth potential of large masses of small-fry accounts."
In other words, making money by making a little bit off of a large number of people. Which seems to be the exact opposite to the approach Six Flags seems to be taking. OK, it's not the same type of business, but don't forget that these financial firms figured they weren't making enough profit dealing with only a limited number of people with higher incomes.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
The big brokers have had to reassess their model! I'm not sure this translates to amusement parks at all...
However...there is good reason to believe that if Six Flags does it...it is probably wrong! Look at their record! *** Edited 1/22/2006 3:15:22 PM UTC by Jeffrey R Smith***
According to last year's prices, it was $31 to get the basic rides and wood coaster option--which is not normally available during the weekend, because that's right, you pay by the ride. They have exactly two adult coasters. There are no B&M's, there are no Intamin's. Most of the rides are carnival rides. The toilets have no seats. The park is way out of the way causing you to spend a lot on gas, especially once you're on those steep roads leading to the park.
If it was hot and you'd like to visit the Crystal Pool, you paid $11.50 for the Slide & Swim all day option. If it was at night, they cut you a bargain at $7.50. Now mind you, they have four waterslides, two diving boards, and kiddie activity area. It's no Hurricane Harbor. Now here's where things get even funnier. If you wanted to watch someone swim, well that was another $3. The Haunted Mansion was $1.20 a ride, and the Scenic Skyway (chairlift) was another $3. Ok, so would you like to tell me how affordable Knoebels is again? [mind you, I like the park a lot, I'm just pointing out reality].
Now I'm going to adress the Holiday World issue. Outside of a small area of the midwest, how many people have honestly ever heard of the park? I'm sure if I polled a 100 people, I would probably get blank stares from about 98 of them at least. Sure, they may have been featured on a show here or there, but there are hundreds of channels and only so many viewers for the niche programming. Maybe they read the GQ article, but again, that has a limited readership. So the point I'm trying to make is when you're located in the middle of nowhere, you've got to try a lot harder to get people to return.
The last thing I'll talk about is that enthusiasts don't spend money at other parks they visit with the season pass, which I think is untrue. If I'm visiting a Six Flags for the first time, I generally don't know where any fast-food options are outside of the park. And even if I did, it would be a huge inconvenience to leave a park I've never been to and come back. I also still have to pay the parking charge since the parking pass doesn't transfer.
Take Great Adventure for example. Okay, so I leave the park to find my car somewhere in the distance, drive out to the WaWa or McDonalds and then return to get a parking spot even further away from the park. So in the process, I may have saved some money, but I've lost valuable riding time. And I'm there all day, I'm probably going to eat two meals. So what if it's a park like SFOT, a park I may never visit again? Your damn right that I'm going to buy that Titan t-shirt and maybe a ride photo (which I did), because who knows when the hell I'll ever be back in Texas again.
Lastly, you can offer all the incentives in the world, but it doesn't take away the fact that be a ride op is incredibly boring, tedious, and the environment can be don't right hostile (either in the weather, or from the guests).
Intamin, at Knoebels' I rarely buy the all day pass anyway for myself, as I figure I'd have to get in around 22-24 rides to equal what I'd spend on tickets. That's a lot in one day, even at a place with no to little lines. On the other hand, kids I've been with make out like bandits on the all day pass.
I don't do the pool thing there, but I would certainly never buy an all day ride pass and an additional slide and swim pass on the same day. Seems to me that most patrons in the pool are from the campgrounds, so that may be a good deal for them.
I couldn't care less about whether a ride looks like a carnival ride or not. But I do know that many of them have been there for decades, which does attest to a well implemented maintanance program, which is more important to me than providing "theming and atmosphere."
I also shell out much less money for food and drinks there than at the big boy parks. That should count for something in affordability, don't you think?
As far as location, well it would be difficult to relocate the stream and park to a location closer to the interstate and more convenient for you. To you "outsiders" it seems like the park is in the middle of nowhere and has a paltry customer base. But I happen to know that people routinely come to Knoebels from places like Stroudsburg, DuBois, Reading, Harrisburg, and Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. Look at a map of PA and you'll see that it's a big chunk of the state and it does contain several million people. People drive up to 2 hours to go there and it's no big deal.
As far as the hills, well that's the way the land is around here. I really never think twice about going up and down hills. Besides, I think I used (wasted) far more gas going to/from PKD where it took me well over an hour to go from Springfield to Fredericksburg on I-95. My alternate route back probably added 20-30 miles on two lane roads. So that wasn't the most energy efficient trip.
I don't think waiting in line for an average of an hour per ride, and getting to ride maybe 6-8 rides the whole day is particularly affordable either. Not to mention walking past a good dozen rides that aren't operating that day. Yet this seems to be par for the course at many of the big boy parks, judging from many of the trip reports I've read here.
I'll have to admit that for the majority of my life, I had only been to corporate parks. The only non-corporate park I can think of that I went to earlier on in childhood was pre-Cedar Fair owned Dorney Park (and yes, they had pay toilets too if memory serves me correctly). So walking into Knoebels for the first time was very odd.
When I mentioned the out-of-the-way comment, I remember looking at a map wanting to go to Knoebels after seeing video of both Phoenix and Twister on the America's Greatest videos. But when I looked at the PA map, and saw where it was located, it looked like it was going to be an awfully long, non-linear drive with no major roads to get there. The drive actually isn't as bad as it looks (particularly if you've been at Hershey or Dorney the day before), but I know I put off the trip for years (in spite of really wanting to ride Power Surge) because of how it looked on the map.
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