Cedar Point announces record breaking dive roller coaster, Valravn

bigboy said:
So somebody 'splain to me how "the park can do better" or "I expect more" is much different than "we deserve better" or any of the asinine comments that we rag Timber Rider for spilling out that reek of a complete lack of understanding of business and economic principles. Isn't it entirely possible that, from a business, standpoint, with the budget they were given, that this was the best they could put together?

Tim riders main complaint is that from a business standpoint Cedar Fair should be adding coasters to a park that doesn't need to add coasters to be financially viable. He's not expressing an opinion he's expressing a fallacy about how business works. That's what's different.

No one here is saying that it's a bad business move in fact we all pretty much said the opposite. We think the park is capable of doing something more unique even if it's the same price. That's not the argumentative writing make no one here is saying that it's a bad business move in fact we all pretty much said the opposite. We think the park is capable of doing something more unique even if it's the same price. That's not the argument that he makes.

I can expect better without feeling like I deserve it. If you can't understand that, I don't know what to tell you.

Raven-Phile said:

I'll settle for a satin jacket.

With our name embroidered on the left breast and a big CB logo on the back!?

Yay!

Tekwardo said:

Tim riders main complaint is that from a business standpoint Cedar Fair should be adding coasters to a park that doesn't need to add coasters to be financially viable. He's not expressing an opinion he's expressing a fallacy about how business works. That's what's different.

No one here is saying that it's a bad business move in fact we all pretty much said the opposite. We think the park is capable of doing something more unique even if it's the same price.

But it's tha same argument from a different angle...kind of.

CP doesn't have to put something more unique in. There's literally no reason to. It makes the best sense for them to cater to the majority of their customers. It makes sense to use a proven product from a company they work with frequently that has a stellar track record of delivering high capacity, crowd friendly, reliable rides.

Being pissed off for what ride is being added because it's not (fill in the blank) is ignoring the reality of the situation much the same way TR does in not getting a coaster. The difference is it's gets a little more whiny and entitled sounding becuase there actually is a new ride going in that is a significant investment and continued growth..."It's just not what I wanted to see."

Which, mind you, is a completely different argument than, "Meh. Not a fan of dive coasters."

I think the confusion or grey area occurs when someone attaches the former argument onto the latter.

I think at this point it's really just more a matter of tone and attitude.

Valrvn isn't going to set my world on fire. If it's as good as Griffon (don't see why it wouldn't be), it will be around the 4th or 5th best coaster in the park according to my own personal taste. It will be a lot of fun and will maybe hopefully reduce lines at the other coasters I like even more. I don't ever want to be the guy who doesn't find dropping straight down 200+ feet at 75MPH "boring."

Still, as an enthusiast, is it would I would have chosen? No. As a business man, is it what I would have chosen? Hell yes. Give me huge, marketable, comfortable, crowd pleasing, reliable B&Ms until the cows come home.

It's not that the opinion about Valrvn being "meh" is even invalid, it's more that it's just kind of pointless, and repetitive, and comes off as kind of whiny and entitled, especially when reverberated through the enthusiast culture internet echo chamber ad nauseum.

matt. said:

I don't ever want to be the guy who doesn't find dropping straight down 200+ feet at 75MPH "boring."

Yes. Perspective.

LostKause said:
And whoever said that the ride will not have a good viewing area is crazy. A path goes directly under the ride, and the coaster is surrounded by walkways.

That was me.

eightdotthree said:
Like the new pathway and the ride looks great but it's a little disappointing that they didn't add a splash pool or a better viewing area.

Think of the bridge leading to Griffon's queue where everyone can look straight up at the trains hanging over the top or Sheikra where you have to pass by the splash pool to get to the ride. I think those elements add a lot to the atmosphere around the ride.

I just don't get it. "I want this ride to be unique, so give it the same elements as the others" - it doesn't make sense.

I think the way this is going to be set up and laid out is going to be perfect for CP.

I don't think I'm the only one who's merely surprised at the addition, rather than thinking it's not good enough. I trust it'll be fun -- I love Griffon -- but even back when the Register spilled the beans earlier this year I was mystified why they were going this route.

CP already has a collection of really great coasters, but there has been a lack of more modest rides families with younger children can enjoy together since the removal of Wildcat and Disaster Transport, and the baffling increase of Iron Dragon's height requirement. The focus on families is especially important, since a) they spend more money, and b) you're raising the next generation of park visitors. We, and Ouimet, have said such things repeatedly. Many have applauded his focus on family experiences, freshening up and renovating aging structures, dark-coaster-VR-ride-things, and even as recently as last week he said more "dark coasters" were on the way.

It's kind of ironic, the reaction here. If they'd announced a dark ride and people said it was lame, we'd be barking about how whiny entitled enthusiasts want everything to be a big coaster, and how those only attract thrill-seekers and teenagers who don't spend any money in the park. Well, here we have a big coaster, and we're still being called whiny and entitled for expecting something else. Again, I think it will be a lot of fun, I'm just puzzled by the addition in the context of things Ouimet has said, and in the context of a park that already has a wealth of big, thrilling coasters.

I'll trust that Cedar Fair -- particularly the current incarnation of it -- knows their business better than I do, so obviously they think this will bring in more guests. That's fine. I'll just sit back and get ready to dive. ;)

Did I strike a nerve, Gonch?

I don't believe anyone here said that Cedar Point made a bad decision with this one. I don't even recall anyone ever saying that they weren't going to ride it. All I've seen is a lot of "meh" and I fall into the group muttering that phrase. I'm sorry if that negativity bothers you (or anyone else). In the future, I suppose we should all be negative in a positive way?

This is definitely all about perspective. Such as, this is a site for roller coaster enthusiasts. That means there's going to be enthusiasm or, when the situation exists, lack of enthusiasm. Yeah, Valravn is going to be a big roller coaster. It's going to be smooth and reliable and devour long lines of people and probably be a hell of a lot of fun. On the other hand, I think that more could have been done with the design, and I'm clearly not alone with that opinion. Or negativity, as it's interpreted by you.

This isn't TripAdvisor. I'm not talking to someone at an AAA branch office about Cedar Point discount tickets. I'm not a member of the general public that will ride Valravn and declare it to be totally awesome and entirely unlike anything ever built. I know more about roller coasters than a lot of other people, so I'm going to look at this thing with a critical eye. Just as I don't know a thing about soccer- I can watch a game on TV and see a team play really well and declare, "wow, they're the greatest in the world, they just have to be!" Someone else who knows soccer will surely come along and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and the team isn't as great as they appear. There, the difference in perspective becomes obvious. Like a lot of people around here, I've ridden a lot of roller coasters. Yes, 95% of Cedar Point's visitors won't have a bad thing to say about Valravn. That doesn't mean I don't have a right to be critical, or negative, or whatever else you want to call some behavior that sticks in your craw.

And this whole thing about not knocking a park like Cedar Point because they're good to the coaster enthusiast community? Does that place them above the potential for criticism? And what have they done that's so wonderful? Parks host enthusiast events and still make money. Damn, I absolutely love Knoebels but even I'm not naive enough to think they ever lose money when they host Phunfest or anything else throughout the year. People come, people spent money, it's that simple. Let's not pretend anything related to any amusement park is warm fuzzies and charity.

Here's the thing (at least to me): To 99.9% of visitors, Valravn is completely earth shatteringly unique, even with Maverick, TTD, and WT across the park. "What do you mean they hang you over the edge slowly before you drop!?!?" When we say unique, we're comparing Valravn to rides that we've been on or read TR's for for a decade. Most people look at this thing and think, "I didn't even know you could do that on a roller coaster." It seems kind of absurd to ask for something more than that, especially given that proven and reliable is inevitably cheaper than new and unique.

But it's the same argument from a different angle...kind of.

I disagree. I really, truly understand all of the angles as to why they added the coaster. I'm not begrudging them for this, so much as I'm not impressed, and I personally feel like the last couple of big coaster investments they've put in set a bar. Sure, is that what I want? Them to keep upping the ante? Absolutely. Am I disappointed because in my opinion they didn't? Eh. I'm really indifferent.

CP doesn't have to put something more unique in. There's literally no reason to.

Absolutely right. There really isn't a 'reason' to. I'm being selfish about what I want, no doubt. And this is a discussion board to discuss those things. I don't even mind discussion like this.

I remember Moosh, when referring to SFA and BatwingFanSFA or whatever that nut's name was, saying, after years of literally nothing that "Well, maybe it *is* time to add something to that park." Nobody said that Moosh was contributing to 'enthusiast culture'. Because Moosh wasn't pushing an agenda every time he posted, and everyone was okay with that.

Rob Ascough said:

Did I strike a nerve, Gonch?

Not even close. It's more like when a small child wants to wrestle and you kind of chuckle and play along shoving him away with one hand while having conversation with the adults.

That doesn't mean I don't have a right to be critical, or negative, or whatever else you want to call some behavior that sticks in your craw.

Yep. Just like we have the right to be critical of that sort of attitude as I find it incredibly offputting. You're being everything I believe the enthuiast community shouldn't be. I'm allowed that opinion.

The funny thing is, we were keeping it to ourselves here. It was you that came in and made it a thing. You came here looking for the fight.

You're not going to change my mind.

And this whole thing about not knocking a park like Cedar Point because they're good to the coaster enthusiast community? Does that place them above the potential for criticism?

Absolutely - and especially in the way it's beng presented. Not only they, but also lots of other parks, park reps and such. I tend not to be an asshole to people who go out of their way to do nice things for me. Common courtesy, really. But it's also exactly the sort of social retardation I'd expect from the hardcore coaster community, so I can't say I'm surprised. Like I said, it's why I avoid it. It's embarassing.

And what have they done that's so wonderful? Parks host enthusiast events and still make money. Damn, I absolutely love Knoebels but even I'm not naive enough to think they ever lose money when they host Phunfest or anything else throughout the year. People come, people spent money, it's that simple. Let's not pretend anything related to any amusement park is warm fuzzies and charity.

Have you ever enjoyed ERT? Access to special events? Photo opportunities? Tours of non-public areas? The chance to speak with industry folks? Gifts at events and media days?

That's what they've done specifically for us that's so wonderful.

You don't have to like everything. But they owe you nothing. It's ok to not be enthused by a dive coaster. It must suck to be so jaded and angry about something you supposedly love. Like Matt said, I hope I never reach the day where being dropped 21 stories at 90 degrees and 70-some miles per hour becomes the cause for complaint because it doesn't meet my arbitray expectations of what should be built in any given place.

When you act like they do owe you something (and not necessarily you or just you, but anyone) and express it in such a way, you're a tool. An average stereotypical coaster tool. The kind of person that doesn't last long around here because we'll call you out on your bull****.

Again, you came here full of piss and gusto ready to attack because some of us here are willing to publically say we don't like a certain kind of attitude within the community. Apparently you identify with that. That's too bad. You should probably go interact elsewhere with other jaded people that take the whole thing way too seriously. You're not going to find that here - except for Tekwardo playing devil's advocate...and even he's being entirely reasonable about it.

Rationalize it all you want, but flat out, if you're up in arms because you expected more or think the park owes you more than this as a coaster nerd, then you're exactly what I consider the problem with the coaster community at large. You can explain to me a hundred different ways with 100 different sports analogies and I'll still make a point to distance myself from anyone that thinks this:

"This coaster looks like it's going to be lame. At the very least, it looks entirely underwhelming, especially for a park that claims itself to be the Roller Coaster Capital of the World, and a ride that breaks soooooooooo many world records!!! It doesn't look any better than similar rides at Busch parks, and those were built almost a decade ago. No one is wrong...for having expected it would have a splashdown or a tunnel or break the 300 foot barrier, or whatever they were expecting from this thing."

is a reasonable response to a roller coaster announcement.

I've never had the chance to ride a dive coaster (Sheikra was under construction on my one and only visit to BGT), so I'm moderately excited to take this for a spin. Any new coaster at the Point makes me happy, for multiple reasons. Not least being that this investment will reduce lines for other coasters I already know I love: Millennium, Magnum, Maverick--the top shelf 'M's, among others. So for me it's all good. Now could the park have worked with B&M to build a little more creativity into the layout of the ride? Sure. But so what? It's guaranteed to be a fun ride. People will love it and will vote with their wallets and turnstile clicks. It's a Sure Thing.

I still would like to see more focus devoted to broadening CP's rather smallish lineup of family-friendly rides, and has been opined ad nauseum, the dearth of dark rides is glaring.

But in the grand scheme of things, who cares? it's all gonna be great. The sun will break through the clouds on Opening Day next May, and Valravn is gonna look awfully purty, lined up with all those other beauties we love.

I'm loving this thread. I feel I may have come across as one of those "entitled" enthusiasts in the closed portion of the thread, but rest assured that is not the case.

I'm pretty much on Tek's wagon with this.

Is this what I would have built if I ruled the world? No. But neither was Gatekeeper, yet we've been riding and enjoying it for years now. No one can argue that GK was not the PERFECT addition to the park. IMO, they could have coasted on GK's newness for another year or 2. But after skipping the 2015 season passes for the first time in 16 years, we're heading out the door within the hour to pick up our Platinums for 2016 and enjoy Rollercoaster Appreciation Night. And yes, Valravn is a big part in our decision to have them again. Now that our son is older, we've discovered that 1 or 2 visits a year is just fine, but we definitely want to be around next year for Valravn. I see us taking many spins on what promises to be a great time.

On a separate note, CP does not have any rides with underground portions. Is it possible that due to the geography of the land they are on that it would be extremely difficult or impossible to do so?

TLDR: I guess you could say Valravn is such a good addition that it even works on the "jaded enthusiast."

Tommytheduck said:

CP does not have any rides with underground portions. Is it possible that due to the geography of the land they are on that it would be extremely difficult or impossible to do so?

Yes. Sitting directly on the lake means that any amount of digging requires dealing with a lot of water. This was probably most evident to the enthusiast community when they built Shoot the Rapids. They had web cameras on the site constantly and you could see how quickly the lagoon would fill up if the sump pumps ever turned off. Does that mean they can't dig/build below grade? No. But, it would be more expensive than a park without such a high water table and it's just asking for problems.

I worked for an amusement park before turning into an enthusiast. I would say it was the five summers that built the passion for parks more so then just riding rides. That said, I try to stay on the fringe of the culture as much as possible with my select group of friends. I am not in any clubs, attend any special events. Why? Exposure to the elitist enthusiast culture by certain 3 letter clubs was very off putting. Almost to the point as a ride host we generally hated seeing anyone in certain t-shirts on our ride platforms. So I completely understand the fringe movement.

Back to Valravn, I have enjoyed 3 dive machines in my coastering and I'm very excited for this ride. I've been waiting a long time for Point to get a Dive. I'm honestly surprised it has taken this long.

Lord Gonchar said:

matt. said:

I don't ever want to be the guy who doesn't find dropping straight down 200+ feet at 75MPH "boring."

Yes. Perspective.

I don't think it would be boring but i would rather walk a little further and drop over 400ft straight down at 120mph! :)

Rob Ascough said:

Did I strike a nerve, Gonch?

Well, you were right about one thing. Some things never change.

Just an observation...Two fliers (Tatsu and Manta) are currently polling 5-7 spots ahead of the dive machines Griffon and Shiekra in the top 100. I think CP would have had the same impact if they built the world's tallest and fastest flier. I wonder what made them decide to go with a dive machine instead of a flier?

birdhombre said:

CP already has a collection of really great coasters, but there has been a lack of more modest rides families with younger children can enjoy together since the removal of Wildcat and Disaster Transport, and the baffling increase of Iron Dragon's height requirement.

I notice the registered trademark "Roller Coaster Capitol Of The World!" turning up again and again -- on the VR app, complete with logo; on cedarpoint.com's homepage -- which suggests to me that Cedar Point is being positioned as the roller coaster park. Based on various interviews Mr Ouimet has given, I'm sure more family friendly attractions are coming to the park, but it seems to me biggest, fastest, tallest, whatever-est coasters are going to be a key focus.

LordGonchar said:

Yep. Just like we have the right to be critical of that sort of attitude as I find it incredibly offputting. You're being everything I believe the enthuiast community shouldn't be. I'm allowed that opinion.

Yes. This.

All this dramatic falling about on fainting couches, aghast and apoplectic that Coaster Z lacks a tunnel, duplicates other rides, has no water feature, has maroon support structures instead of gingham.... I don't get it.

This is some bull****. When the hell is Cedar Point getting a Dragon Wagon?