So MJ lied about his surgery and other things, so what! Who has never told a lie?
So MJ has let children sleep in his bed? So what! He slept on the floor, and if he did share the bed with them, MJ is like a child himself, so it's only like two kids sharing a bed.
So MJ is 44 and is like a child, while this may not be normal, it doesn't mean he's a child molester. MJ adores children just like Walt Disney did, what is wrong with that.
Just because most "normal" people think about sex all the time, doesn't mean to say everyone else has to. I doubt MJ even has a libido, so sex is probably the last thing on his mind.
He may not be normal, but would you be if you had his childhood?
I'm not the biggest fan of MJ, but I admire his achievements and his creativity, and I actually met him in Caeser's Palace once, and I feel privileged.
That interview was a "set up" to make MJ look bad. Afterall, if he'd turned out to be "normal", no one would be talking about it would they?
As for the Jordy incident. None of us were there so we have no right to comment on it. But it doens't take a genious to work out that allegations like that would make you rich pretty quick, and it's probably just a metter of time before some other greedy person (who *is* sick) decides to try it again.
The world is so quick to judge anyone and everyone who doesn't fit into their stereotypical values of what people should be like. There are lots of people who think coaster enthusiasts of weird and freaks - how do you like the label?
Anyway, this topic no longer has nothing to do with coasters, so I don't know why it's not been closed.
You made my day. :)
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You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself.
-Galileo
coasterzak said:
Following his morals and lessons he had learned from his mom who was a Jehovah's Witness, he saw sex as pain and suffering.
Hmmmm.....seems to me his Jehovah's Witness mom sure made a lotta babies herself, right? How'd that happen?
Actually, he made his separation from that religious group quite public around the time Bad was released. I think there were a lot of suit-wearing, WatchTower toting types kicking their heels because he waited to flip out until after he quit. Okay, really really flip out. All right, cross the line from weirdo to sicko. Hey, you get the idea.
-Cap'n Obvious
(on routine stupid patrol)
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya 2/7/2003 6:50:16 PM ***
Mamoosh said:
I watched the show and thought it was a *fascinating* interview.My opinion: MJ has arrested development and has never matured beyond that of a pre-teen. I don't approve of a 44-yr-old man allowing kids to sleep in his bedroom but MJ doesn't see himself as a 44-yr-old man, he see's himself as a kid. But I certainly don't condone that behavior. Where are the parents of those children?
Watching the show I didn't get any kind of sexual vibe from him at all. Zero, zip. Given his stunted development, the fact that as a teen he turned down sex with girlfriend Tatum O'Neal because he wasn't ready, the fact that *none* of his kids have been conceived through sex, and the fact that at an early age his brothers would tell him that he should ignore them having sex while in the same hotel room or same bed its no wonder that even at 44 he's still in that adolescent "sex is icky" stage.
When you take into account the way he was treated by his father and what Joseph Jackson would say about the way Michael looked [especially comments about his nose] its easy to see why he doesn't like his face and has tried to change it so much. He has most definitely lied about the amount of plastic surgery he's had but the man lives in Neverland....literally *and* mentally.
Remember, only "normal" people think they're crazy. People who really are crazy can't tell the difference.
Moosh - who thinks the coaster will be something portable, most likely a mouse.
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"It looks smaller than I imagined, but still looks to be a great ride." -- CPLady
I stand and applaud you b/c you completely told MJs story in that one post. I think it is really sad what MJs dad/stardom has done to a person so talented. The man needs HELP ASAP b/c when reality finally does set in for him, it isn't going to be pretty. I like I always say a parent can make a great person or a total monster and Joseph has turned a once normal looking, hella talent, human being into a monsterous laughing stock. It's sad if you really could see into this mans life,and get into his world, a normal person would probably be horrified............even though the question remains what is a normal person lol
Anyways I think the coaster will be something like a dark ride/coaster combo, where is beside in the dark will the little ones truely experience M:TR hehehehehe:O)~
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X...I still can't believe it wasn't a dream
Darth Saambe said:
Michael Jackson led the way for what is music and music videos today. In a world where so much of our culture is based around music and dance, he has changed it like no other. The lyrics to his songs aren't pointless but tell stories about life, happiness, and the world around us.If you smile
With your fear and sorrow
Smile and maybe tomorrow
You'll find that life is still worthwhile if you'll just...
Light up your face with gladness
Hide every trace of sadness
Although a tear may be ever so near
That's the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what's the use of crying
You'll find that life is still worthwhile
The entirety of that excerpt sounds like it advocates hiding away every bad emotion you have, plastering on a big smile, and pretending that nothing is wrong. It would seem to match what I've seen of him, but I would not consider that groundbreaking, much less even beneficial. However, that's subjective...
Michael Jackson also lead the way for music videos. With his video "Beat It," Michael showed that violence can be settled through Dance and music.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that West Side Story pre-dates Beat It. That may not have been settling violence through dance & music, but at the same vein, Michael did *not* show that violence can be settled through dance & music any more than Star Wars showed us how to blow up a Death Star. Scripted, fictional events. I can show you how to do a million things in front of a camera with a script, actually making them happen in real life is a completely different story.
...and bringing on special effects and make up crews that were only seen in feature-length movies, are some of the things Michael did to raise the bar on music video making. He even raised it so high that Thriller was added into the big screens for a short time, so it could be nominated for an Emmy.
I'll give you that. He advanced the world of video-making hugely, there really was no such a thing as a video before that...they were almost all just live/studio performances by the band, without any sort of visual narrative. Thriller was ground-breaking, and something special.
Admittedly, though, very few after him have truly followed his lead, most of the stuff on MTV right now is horrid...
One thing that Michael Jackson may have revolutionized most is dance. His famous moonwalk and sideways moonwalk are constantly seen as dance moves in other popstars performances, and music videos. His creativity has yet to be matched and he holds a special place on every stage that no other person can get to.
I think it's slightly presumptious that he has creativity that has yet to be matched, I'm sure that there are fans of many different types of dancing that might disagree with you there, everywhere from breakdancing to Scottish folk dancing. I still maintain that watching Fred Astaire is a bit more impressive than MJ, but once again, that's a subjective thing.
If you'd take time to look at how much music effects our everyday lives, and how much he has one for it, then maybe you could understand why I say he has done so much for us. Everytime you turn on the radio, or flip past MTV, MTV2, VH1, BET, and all oher music related stations on TV, you get a little bit of the American culture in your head. Take some time to stop and smell the roses, realize where we live and what the things he's done REALLY mean. You might be surprised....
There are those (like myself) that curse him for making MTV what it is, rather than appreciate it. Radio, MTV, etc have turned into a wasteland for people who like the music I like (Stereolab, Jon Spencer, Tom Waits, G. Love & Special Sauce), a world where only the biggest stars or those that have the record company's money behind them can get any radio/air play. There's music everywhere, and not all of it has to have multi-million dollar videos with hollywood talent making them. Music was around and reflecting the human experience long before MJ, and it will do the same long after. Elvis was at least as influential on modern music as MJ was, and ya know what? He was also a freak! Elvis was completely mental! However, that has absolutely no reflection on his music, except to say that a lot of the best artists have been crazy. Elvis, MJ, Kurt Cobain, the Sex Pistols, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix...the list goes on and on. You can love somebody's music and admit that they've enriched your life, and you don't need to validate their lifestyle and existence to do so.
Nobody set out to purposefully label MJ a freak. It wasn't an organized campaign, it happened because he acts very, very strangely. He developed his reputation through his actions. If he didn't have the talent that he has, and somebody who works a normal lower-to-middle class job behaved the way he does, I can guarantee you that you would not be defending him the way you are now. He's had a horrible childhood, and he's still dealing with the fallout from that. That doesn't make him any less of an artist, but just don't be surprised if, when you try to tell someone that MJ isn't a freak, they look at you incredulously, wondering how you can possibly believe what you're saying.
*** This post was edited by Tom Servo 2/7/2003 9:12:33 PM ***
The entirety of that excerpt sounds like it advocates hiding away every bad emotion you have, plastering on a big smile, and pretending that nothing is wrong. It would seem to match what I've seen of him, but I would not consider that groundbreaking, much less even beneficial. However, that's subjective...
The lyrics to me don't come across as that. He's stating not to be pessimistic and look at the good side of things. Again, it is subjective but maybe you're being what he tells us not to do and are being pessimistic. You can't look for the bad in everything.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that West Side Story pre-dates Beat It. That may not have been settling violence through dance & music, but at the same vein, Michael did *not* show that violence can be settled through dance & music any more than Star Wars showed us how to blow up a Death Star. Scripted, fictional events. I can show you how to do a million things in front of a camera with a script, actually making them happen in real life is a completely different story.
I know West Side Story predates Beat It. I'm not that dumb, and I for one enjoy broadway and am in many perforances. (Currently in You're a Good Man Charlie Brown) You probably misunderstood me because I'm saying Michael Jackson took the idea from West Side Story and incorporated it in Beat it. Yes, things were fictional but it's more symbotic than anything else....
Admittedly, though, very few after him have truly followed his lead, most of the stuff on MTV right now is horrid...
IMHO, people followed him. If they hadn't, there'd be no pop music right now. Although, I don't enjoy pop very much, Michael is the exception. I don't watch MTV right now either because I'm more of an underground ska/punk nut but that doesn't mean the stuff on MTV is bad. Again, it's opinion.
I think it's slightly presumptious that he has creativity that has yet to be matched, I'm sure that there are fans of many different types of dancing that might disagree with you there, everywhere from breakdancing to Scottish folk dancing. I still maintain that watching Fred Astaire is a bit more impressive than MJ, but once again, that's a subjective thing.
I don't know how you get Scottish folk dance, but that's a completely different type of music. Michael is the King of POP. Not scottish folk dance. Undoubtably, with his talent, he could master any form IMO.
There are those (like myself) that curse him for making MTV what it is, rather than appreciate it. Radio, MTV, etc have turned into a wasteland for people who like the music I like (Stereolab, Jon Spencer, Tom Waits, G. Love & Special Sauce), a world where only the biggest stars or those that have the record company's money behind them can get any radio/air play. There's music everywhere, and not all of it has to have multi-million dollar videos with hollywood talent making them. Music was around and reflecting the human experience long before MJ, and it will do the same long after. Elvis was at least as influential on modern music as MJ was, and ya know what? He was also a freak! Elvis was completely mental! However, that has absolutely no reflection on his music, except to say that a lot of the best artists have been crazy. Elvis, MJ, Kurt Cobain, the Sex Pistols, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix...the list goes on and on. You can love somebody's music and admit that they've enriched your life, and you don't need to validate their lifestyle and existence to do so.
Okay, so the biggest stars only get on MTV. Like I said earlier, I normally don't watch MTV or listen to the radio. Just like I don't ever watch football or go to any games. It's just something I don't enjoy and am against. But the fact is that Michael Jackson did have an effect on our culture, and so did all of the other stars you named. (I for one am a Hendrix fan and am glad he's also getting the recognition he deserves. Not because he was mental but because he impacted everyone and everything.) But isn't part of validating some ones life style the American culture. We're always getting in others people business and are trying to find out things we don't need to know. MJ lives in the spotlight, and he always has. He's not an idiot and doesn't know how to make choices. He's been in it all his life, so it's what he's accustom to. People who haven't been, try to judge him and make these false accusations.
Nobody set out to purposefully label MJ a freak. It wasn't an organized campaign, it happened because he acts very, very strangely. He developed his reputation through his actions. If he didn't have the talent that he has, and somebody who works a normal lower-to-middle class job behaved the way he does, I can guarantee you that you would not be defending him the way you are now. He's had a horrible childhood, and he's still dealing with the fallout from that. That doesn't make him any less of an artist, but just don't be surprised if, when you try to tell someone that MJ isn't a freak, they look at you incredulously, wondering how you can possibly believe what you're saying.
I don't know about you, but every day we see "freaks" in our society. Heck (!), I've even been called one before. I'm sure that you have too somewhere in your life time. Many people don't find him as a freak and realise that he's just another human that's made it big. You can't treat him any less for always being on TV or the radio and being a freak. Put this into perspective, it's kinda like me saying I don't like you because of your name... His name is always in the headlines. Do you not like him, or just his name?
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You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself.
-Galileo
I'm not going to debate you, because I simply don't care about MJ. But I do have to say that Pop would be alive and just fine if he had never existed. Not to say that he hasn't contributed to it greatly....
Simply, no musician is that important. Not Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Hendrix, The Stones, etc..... We'd still have rock without the stones, we'd still have guitar gods without Hendrix, etc......
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- "I used to be in the audio/visual club, but I was kicked out because of my views on Vietnam........and I was stealing projectors" - Homer Simpson
*** This post was edited by Peabody 2/7/2003 11:46:39 PM ***
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You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself.
-Galileo
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- "I used to be in the audio/visual club, but I was kicked out because of my views on Vietnam........and I was stealing projectors" - Homer Simpson
coasterzak said:Following his morals and lessons he had learned from his mom who was a Jehovah's Witness, he saw sex as pain and suffering.
Hmmm...While we're on the subject of commenting on something you know absolutely NOTHING about, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and No, we don't believe sex is bad or relate it to pain and suffering. Premarital or Extramarital sex IS bad and DOES lead to pain and suffering (ask anybody who's had an affair, or ask their spouse, they'll tell you), Which is something that a good majority of ALL religions view as immoral, so please don't go spouting off about things you don't know to try and prove to others that they don't know MJ, because it dosen't look good for you when other people who do know more about what you are talking about realize and call you out.
I think CoastaPlaya hit it right on the nose, I know Many peeps that have mutliple kids, and large familys that Have been Jehovah's Witnesses for a long time. And yes, we were glad tha MJ decided to puplicly acknowledge that he is no longer one BEFORE he started changing, infact, that's what the whole Bad album was done for.
Don't get me wrong, not trying to be rude, and heck, I'll admit that the guy is talented(though a bit washed up). I'm a HUGE Janet Jackson fan, saw her in concert, have all her albums(memorized), etc., but don't try to blame it on his mom. I think she's the parent that tried to be the "good parent", and not just because of her religious choices, but because she tried to be a mom, and not just "Katherine" to her children, like Joe was "Joseph", and not father.
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Now that our "Nutty Buddy" is back, I guess I'll have to change this...
It was nice to see Zamperla's Balloon rides, Zipper, Yo-Yo, Ferris Wheel, go-carts etc in the background. He even had the old-timey clocks you see in the old lunar parks of yesteryear.
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Coastin' Carl
ULTIMATECOASTER.com - In Search of the "Ultimate" Thrill
*** This post was edited by Coastin Carl 2/8/2003 2:04:57 PM ***
Of coursed I am kidding, however I really don't believe he did anything with the kiddies, ESPECIALLY JORDY. The media can totally destroy anyone it wants to. AND some people will say anything for money.
ON TOPIC...He DOES have the Zipper, which is a pretty intense ride. That means that whatever coaster he installs wouldn't have to be a kiddy ride. I predict a wild mouse.
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Think for yourself-Don't reley on someone else.
*** This post was edited by dexter 2/8/2003 2:32:15 AM ***
TeknoScorpion said:
coasterzak said:Following his morals and lessons he had learned from his mom who was a Jehovah's Witness, he saw sex as pain and suffering.
Hmmm...While we're on the subject of commenting on something you know absolutely NOTHING about, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and No, we don't believe sex is bad or relate it to pain and suffering. Premarital or Extramarital sex IS bad and DOES lead to pain and suffering (ask anybody who's had an affair, or ask their spouse, they'll tell you), Which is something that a good majority of ALL religions view as immoral, so please don't go spouting off about things you don't know to try and prove to others that they don't know MJ, because it dosen't look good for you when other people who do know more about what you are talking about realize and call you out.
Well seeing that I was taking what I said exactly out of my book, I'm just saying what I read. It's not like MJ and I are buddies so it's kind of on a secondhand type of deal. Sorry if I didn't know completely about the religion, but the book said that about premarital sex... you're right, it's wrong in any religion.
Hmmm...While we're on the subject of commenting on something you know absolutely NOTHING about, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and No, we don't believe sex is bad or relate it to pain and suffering. Premarital or Extramarital sex IS bad and DOES lead to pain and suffering (ask anybody who's had an affair, or ask their spouse, they'll tell you), Which is something that a good majority of ALL religions view as immoral, so please don't go spouting off about things you don't know to try and prove to others that they don't know MJ, because it dosen't look good for you when other people who do know more about what you are talking about realize and call you out.
You only gave evidence for "extramarital" sex, which I believe, outside of religion, even us athiests with agree with you on. To take it a step further, even if you're not married to someone, but you're in a committed relationship, I still think it's wrong. I wasn't married, but had been in a relationship with a girl for three years when she cheated on me, and it hurt like nothing I've ever felt. Marriage is not a prerequisite for that.
That being said, premartial had nothing to do with your argument. You can have premarital sex with many, many people, though not at the same time, and still maintain normal relationships with those people in the future, certainly not hurting them to the point that it would be devastating. If that were true, I doubt I could even get on the internet these days, much less out of my house.
Darth Saambe said:
I hate to do this too...Fair 'nuff
The lyrics to me don't come across as that. He's stating not to be pessimistic and look at the good side of things. Again, it is subjective but maybe you're being what he tells us not to do and are being pessimistic. You can't look for the bad in everything.It still sounds more like "put on a happy face" to me. Things are bad sometimes, and I'd rather deal with them, no matter how bad that situation might get, than pretend it's not there. Two different interpretations, I guess, and as usual, I'm the cynical one... ;)
I know West Side Story predates Beat It. I'm not that dumb, and I for one enjoy broadway and am in many perforances. (Currently in You're a Good Man Charlie Brown) You probably misunderstood me because I'm saying Michael Jackson took the idea from West Side Story and incorporated it in Beat it. Yes, things were fictional but it's more symbotic than anything else....I'm not sure that I see the symbolism, outside of having the dancing be symbolic of fighting, which still does not give a "dance instead of fight" message, it's just a way of showing it. I've done my fair share of Norwegian folk dances symbolizing fighting (insert joke here) to know that despite it being dancing, it's still a conflict.
Sorry, though, for the West Side Story assumption, I'll take that one back.
IMHO, people followed him. If they hadn't, there'd be no pop music right now. Although, I don't enjoy pop very much, Michael is the exception. I don't watch MTV right now either because I'm more of an underground ska/punk nut but that doesn't mean the stuff on MTV is bad. Again, it's opinion.And given the state of pop music today, that seems more like an indictment to me, rather than a position of advocacy. However, that's a matter of taste.
That being said, and another poster said this as well, the position that pop music wouldn't exist today is ludicrous. Pop music existed before MJ, and it would have existed even if he had not been there. It might have been different, but every time I hear the Backstreet Boys, I'll curse Michael Jackson for the state of pop music ;)
I don't know how you get Scottish folk dance, but that's a completely different type of music. Michael is the King of POP. Not scottish folk dance. Undoubtably, with his talent, he could master any form IMO.This may well be true, but mastering is one thing, creating is another. Your point was that he was (I don't have the quote in front of me, so despite the punctuation, I'm paraphrasing) "the most creative" artist to hit the scene. That was the point I was refuting. I don't deny that he's very talented, and can move far better than I, despite my abilities on the Dance Dance Revolution machine.
Okay, so the biggest stars only get on MTV. Like I said earlier, I normally don't watch MTV or listen to the radio. Just like I don't ever watch football or go to any games. It's just something I don't enjoy and am against. But the fact is that Michael Jackson did have an effect on our culture, and so did all of the other stars you named. (I for one am a Hendrix fan and am glad he's also getting the recognition he deserves. Not because he was mental but because he impacted everyone and everything.) But isn't part of validating some ones life style the American culture. We're always getting in others people business and are trying to find out things we don't need to know. MJ lives in the spotlight, and he always has. He's not an idiot and doesn't know how to make choices. He's been in it all his life, so it's what he's accustom to. People who haven't been, try to judge him and make these false accusations.One could argue that the price of fame is living in the public eye...that, or you can go the Greta Garbo route. Nevertheless, the thread was based on his interview on TV, not on his music. I don't believe I saw anybody before your first post saying anything horrible about his music, your point was that it was wrong of us to judge him as a freak.
Now, that may be true, but one cannot deny the fact that he lives and thrives in the public eye. Somebody could catch me on public TV doing something ridiculous, and if I wanted everyone to mind their own business and stay out of my life, I wouldn't go on public TV to talk about it. Ignore it for long enough and it goes away. The simple fact of the matter is that he thrives under the attention, he seeks it out. He gets good attention, but at the same time, he gets scrutiny. I hate to use cliches (okay, I'm lying, I love using cliches) but you can't have your cake and eat it too.
I don't know about you, but every day we see "freaks" in our society. Heck (!), I've even been called one before. I'm sure that you have too somewhere in your life time. Many people don't find him as a freak and realise that he's just another human that's made it big. You can't treat him any less for always being on TV or the radio and being a freak. Put this into perspective, it's kinda like me saying I don't like you because of your name... His name is always in the headlines. Do you not like him, or just his name?I'm called a freak at least once a day, if not more. I'm weird. I do strange things. I'm that IT guy at work that says odd non-sequiturs on a regular basis, wears the weird clothes, and has the funny hair.
The difference is, being a freak is part of my nature. I like that part about myself, and I like that people feel challenged simply by the way I act. I don't want anyone defending me, this is how I am. You're defending MJ. Either he's like me, and doesn't want you defending him, or he's not like me, and he acts like a freak despite not wanting to be known as one. Either drop in line, or thrive in your strangeness. Don't act different than everyone else, then be terrified that someone might notice.
As far as the name thing goes, that's a completely ridiculous argument. There's no way at all that you could claim that I think MJ is a freak because I have a problem with that name. I think he's a freak because I've seen his appearance change from a black man to a white woman, I've seen him dangle babies over balcony railings, I've seen him admit that he sleeps (not in a sexual way, but still) with young children not related to him, the list goes on. His behaviour defines my opinion of him, not his name. If you want to judge me by my name, so be it, but that has absolutely no bearing on this debate at all.
He knows how the world views him, he has the choice to stop doing odd things. But he doesn't. So, you either live your life like you want to and accept that people are not going to always be OK with it, or you fall in line and relax knowing that you're not be scrutinized. But ya can't have both.
EDIT: Found me a forum bug. If you bracket quote & bracket italic everything, it breaks normal line breaking. ooops!
EDIT 2: Nevermind, I'm an arse. It was the poster after me that farked up the formatting.
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