California shuts down rides with Intamin T-bar restraints

Jeff said: "...the newer version places your butt lower, knees higher, and the bar makes contact down on your thighs close to your torso."

That, to me, is the PRECISE reason that there is a need to look at these Intamin ride-related fatalities on a *restraint-system* basis...but as noted, we do need to get back the report on Hydro...fact is that we *do* know that the RoS rides do not prevent riders from assuming a body position other than the necessary "Z" required for safety. Many times it seems that riders with unusual body proportions have failed to get the lap bar to make direct contact with the femur...with terrible consequences...:(

With the "bucket-type" seats, riders butts are LOWER, meaning the lap bar is more able to make *DIRECT contact with the femur*....it seems that a curved lap bar also is helpful. WHY all the insanity, that's a matter of people NOT knowledgeable about the rides or restraint systems "CYA'ing the situation"....

Again, the Hydro incident MAY add new information...

You can just about see the bent T-bar on Hydro in this photograph here: http://www.coasterclub.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=4&pos=74

I think the seats are probably the same as Perilous Plunge's which I seem to remember being very similar to the Superman seats just without the metal piping on the side and the addition of the headrest.

Regarding the media getting it 'wrong' about the restraints, I can't find any reference stronger than the fact someone fell from an "almost identical" ride where the restraint system had to be modified as it was "clearly inadequete" (source: BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3633155.stm)

I find it strange nothing has come out from the Oakwood investigation. I'm sure the investigation must be fairly well advanced, what with the talk about considering charges of manslaughter, and I'm surprised we haven't heard anything yet.

Okay, so we have established that Hydro has the new lap bars.

Interesting what you say about Hydro not having the metal tubing seat frame, though. It is absolutely impossible to tell from the photo, but if there is little or no division between seats, that could be a deficiency in the ride restraint which could lead to a passenger ejection if all seats are not filled. One of the problems with individual lap bars is that the rider can come out from under the bar and end up not secured if the seat is not also individual.

Gotta see more photos...either that, or get to Wales...

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

That's something I hadn't considered before, Dave. I've had a look at a fair few more photos of Hydro including ones at:

http://www.coasterclub.org/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=50&page=1
And http://www.coasterclub.org/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4&page=6

Not sure if you can find any pictures there, I was trying to see if it even has the edge of the seat curling in towards the bottom like shown on http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery1565.htm?Picture=38

Regarding more photos, they're fairly scarce. And regarding getting to Wales, well, sadly there's no sign of Hydro opening any time soon.

Interesting.

I can see that Hydro's lap bars are COMPLETELY different from ANY of the coaster lap bars. Note that at the top of the neck, there is a double tube welded in there to attach to the lap bar pad.

I can't see in any of those photos any kind of lateral restraint whatsoever. Doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means I can't see it in the Hydro pictures.

As far as getting to Wales...I don't need to ride the thing, I just want a look at the boat... :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Interesting indeed. Well, they aren't COMPLETELY different, but they are different YET AGAIN to any of the other Intamin T-bars I've found so far. How many redesigns?! I wonder whether the River Plunge's restraint was changed specifically due to the accident on Perilous Plunge? I guess we'll never know.

Anyway, back to my "aren't completely" point above, compare the following:

http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery1574.htm?Picture=30
http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery1565.htm?Picture=38
http://www.coasterclub.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=50&pos=5

You'll see that the double tube at the top does form a part of the newer Intamin bent-restraints, but the double part on Hydro is a LOT longer than on, say, Xcelerator or Goliath. I can't really see from the photos, but it does look like this compensates for a shorter 'main bit' of the restraint.

I don't think there is really much lateral restraint on Hydro - I can't remember it, that's for sure. And regarding looking at the boat, yes, I wouldn't mind looking at it. I'm not that interested by the nuts and bolts of rides, but have found this whole restraint topic very interesting to discuss. Unfortunately, I do wonder when the next time any of us will be actually able to get to the boat actually will be.

In this image, you can see that the seats have no sides, at all:

http://www.coasterclub.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=50&pos=2

I'm sorry, but I don't think you need to be an expert to see that's a problem. I noticed after watching a girl 48-1/2" (at tallest) get strapped in on Millennium Force yesterday that if those sides were not there on the seat, she could most certainly shift to either side and get out. Heck, I could probably make a go of it and get out.

That makes about four versions of the seat now, right? The Dragster/Xcelerator version (with the correct length seat belt as a measurement device) angles the legs up to put the lap bar lower than your knees, and it has sides to it so you can't laterally shift to get your legs free. That, to me, seems like the common sense modification if one needs to be made.

Well, let's see if this comes out in the Hydro investigation.

All right, who had the brilliant idea to use an individual restraint with a bench seat?

(user shakes head in disbelief...)

You know, if people understood how these lap bars are supposed to work, and if the seats were designed for the way these lap bars are supposed to work, the seat belts could be a lot longer and we wouldn't have to have operators jamming lap bars into guts with hundreds of pounds of force. We need to get past this ridiculous "tighter is better" mindset and do these things right!

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Yeah, Jeff, that's about four different versions of the seat, but there are even more combinations as rides like Expedition Ge-Force have new T-bar restraints, but old style seats.

Whilst the lack of lateral support/restraint on the Hydro seats is obviously a flaw in my eyes, it has still yet to be proven that it was the cause of the Hydro accident, although I can't remember reports saying there was anyone sitting next to her etc.

Whatever happens, it will be interesting to see what changes - if any - are made to Hydro.

I agree with the folks saying operator error is to blame in a many (all?) of these incidents, but I don't think "train operators " is the solution. Ops are human and will always make mistakes and overlook something at some point in the thousands upon thousands of riders that they dispatch. The only solution that makes me feel comfortable (aside from the fact that I actually understand at a basic level what the restraint is supposed to be doing) is a restraint redesign.

^ that was me, and I'm not sure why my name isn't on the post, but I can't edit it now.

ApolloAndy

The intamin restraints are too minimalistic and rely on being secured firmly against the thighs to hold the rider in.....they allow TOO much room for rider/ride op error.

Who can blame the state for shutting these rides down after recent events? Insurance companies will definitely be raising the premuims on them because of their history......

What do you suggest relying on? Pinning people in by the toes?

I'm glad I didn't go to Knott's Berry Farm on Saturday as I'd planned, seeing that I didn't see the news here until today.

I was at Magic Mountain on the 2nd and Superman: The Escape wasn't operating -- but I was under the impression that it never operates, so.

Yeah, when is S:TE ever open?! lol ;)

The logical conclusion to all of this is that all parks will be permanently closed in the name of safety. Along with ski slopes, sky diving fields, so on, and so on...

I was a ride op at knotts for two years. I was part of the reopening crew for perilous plunge and later moved on to Xcel. I would just like to say that it is not OSHA's only duty to get involved with a worker's injury. While working at perilous I found that they get involved for any injury resulting in death or not. They also inspect and ride the rides in order to determine their safety. They were their with us in order to test and train us for the new restraints. Though those restraints are a pain they are much safer. Intamin has a bad history, I learned more than I ever wanted to know working at Knotts. For Xcel they need to change the restraints, they are not durable. When the ride was first opened to us(employees) not the public...we had many problems with the program shutting down. The first night it was opened to employees my friend was being strapped in(there is a buckle before the tbar is placed down) and when the other ride op came to tug on it to make sure it was secure it simply snapped. A lot of you ride the rides but you will never understand the severity on why exactly they shut the rides down unless you operate it first hand. They don't disclose everything to the public but when you work on the ride you gain a lot of information. Thank you