Are you from Ohio?

Also if you could get a truck threw the Chause gate at the end of the season last year Scwabinchen was sitting in the parking lot dismantled for about a week until the scrap yard (I believe) picked up the bits

But the thing is that Columbus has a "doughnut" issue. It's just that Columbus is a smaller region and as such has a smaller hole. In the end the existing ring actually lies within the city of columbus. The funny thing is that the same is true for Cleveland and especially Pitt and Cinti. The amount of decay for midwest towns (and i know that Pitt isn't really a midwest town, but it act like one), is directly proportional to the size of the metro area. The smaller the region the better off the center city.

It's just that the city was fortunate enough to not be landlocked by old suburbs like Cleveland. By the fifties, Cleveland had no unincorporated land to prey on. So from that standpoint it was lucky for Columbus to have been so small for so long. It is also fortunate for Columbus to have had effective leadership that would recognize and protect that tax base for it's citizens. To bad they now have this sprawling massive city in terms of area, a good bit of which developed in the subrban style that is far more demanding on city resources.

But in the end the average Columbusite..or is it Columbuser, or maybe Columbusonian... anyway, in the end all the average family in Columbus worried about is getting enough money to move out to Dublin or to the northeast suburbs. It is unfortunate that the move back into urban settings couldn't move a little bit faster in this part of the country.

Meangene, are you familiar with that development known as Miranova? Although you can question the success it's had so far, I believe it to be just the tip of the iceburg where urban renewal is concerned. There are huge developments being prepared on 4th street just north of downtown, and some large condos being built on 3rd avenue just north of Broad St. Unlike many cities, we placed our brand new arena smack dab in the middle of the city, and revitalized the area surrounding it.

The only thing that really prevents people from moving into the city is the absolutely horrid state of the Columbus Public School system. I live within the city limits right now, but the minute Mrs. Baruth gets pregnant, we'll either bolt back home to Dublin or I'll investigate Columbus Academy.

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SRM 2003-Look for the guy with my name on his chest

The arena is stimulating all kinds of good things downtown, from the 670 caps on High Street between the Short North and the convention center, the Arena Grand theater, and like Mark said, a lot of new housing.

But to be fair to Columbus schools - the quality of the system varies to the extreme. Check out the test scores at Whetstone High School. If I had kids right now, they'd go to Brookhaven, and I don't think I'd have a problem sending them there. Students get out of school what they're willing to put into it. I went to a very rural high school whose scores on the state report card aren't much better than CPS, and I learned what I needed to know. You do all your real learning in college, anyway.

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A day is a drop of water in the ocean of eternity. A week is seven drops.

I lernded so much in kollige. It gayve me duh skillz I needded to bee a nuwspaper editter. Jurnolism r0x0rs!!!!!11111pfffffffft!

Just a little humor at your expense Den, thanks for playin' along! ;)

Yes, real learning in college...let's see... uhh... how to get a career in something totally different than what your degree is. Yep, that's me! :)

jimmybob sez: Had A-B built that park in Columbus, I would have lived within a 1/4 mile while I was a kid. :(

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Jeff's Stalker
My K'Nex Coasters
Spring has arrived in Ohio...the Orange Barrels are blooming

"I currently attend the one and only Ohio State University. Home of the best damn band in the land, and the best team now. Thanks to a man from Youngstown. OSU proably has the best school songs of any university."

I'm sorry but OSU is not the best. There are much better teams out there that deserve to play against Miami for the National Championship. Illinois got screwed over when they played OSU. Miami, got screwed too. No way was that holding... that still erks me. Bottom line is, is that it should have been the two best teams in the nation playing for that title. Oklahoma and Miami. And OSU's fight song is O.K. I only like it because it kinda sounds like our schools fight song but it is not the best. Tennessee has a great fight song. Fallowed by Texas Tech. Notre Dame has a good group of songs. But, I think the most well known is Florida State's war chant.

waaaaaaaaaaa

Shouldas wouldas and couldas

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It's like a Whirlwind inside of my head!
*** This post was edited by MagnumForce 4/3/2003 6:55:53 PM ***

So, true... :-(

Cleveland placed its arena and ballpark right in the middle of a neighborhood downtown. It had some success in bringing some restaurants and other little retail to the corridor. But to say that the arena or any other sporting complex brings any substantial amount of people into the downtown area is silly. Clearly there is a growing number of people looking to come back into the center city, myself being one of them. All research points also to a groing interest in living in the "downtown" or Central Business District of the city, usually young professionals without kids (some known as DINKs) and older empty nesters. It's not a huge market yet, but i think that while the steam for CBD living in markets like Cleve, Col and Cinti have a very small market; people can and will be looking to find solid housing in other areas of the central city and its first gen suburbs. The neighborhood next to the OSU campus shows that potential for something more. There are other examples in all three Ohio cities. On a similar note, is there anything near the convention center besides hotels? Convention centers are notorious for killing street life in its neighborhood. Things like sporting venues and convention halls create to little traffic for sustainable development. Mixed use is key. Include housing, retail, jobs, and entertainment in the right order and portions and any neighborhood will rebound.

I always wondered what that building was called when i drive through DT Columbus... It is rather... uninspiring. I'm sure that the people who can afford those rents love the view and bringing their green friends up to their nice new apartment. It's funny but i couldn't find a pic of the ground floor of that building. The other funny thing about that building is that it doesn't seem to be a part of the city "fabric". The key to the survival and future of the American city (in my opion and others) is the need for human scale development that is interwoven into the existing city street pattern. Urban life is one note devoid of cars but one NOT dependant on them. Places like Miranova is just a gated community in the vertical form. This is not to say that things (do you hear the scorn) like Miranova have no value. It certainly does to the developer; but my point here is that one must use caution with this Le Corbusier nightmare style of design. It doens't work in the American urban context or societal structure. Structures must be outward facing to encourage street foot traffic in urban areas. Read Jane Jacobs or Jame Kunstler if you want a quick easy read on how cities work in the western world and why American cities are pretty bad off.

Cleveland and Cinti schools have much the same issues as dissued about Columbus. Cleveland's notoriously old and decrepid physical infrastructure and innability to graduate competent students from High School is known widely. On the other hand there are several quality elementry schools within the city. A wierd kind of duality if you ask me. Cinti has terrible conditions in some parts, but nice magnent schools. Obviously schools are the last major ingredient in convincing larger numbers of suburbanites to come home to the city. But that isn't going to happen without a more stable tax base, which means stable property values in the current school funding of Ohio public schools. Personally i am in favor of regional consolidations, kind of like what Columbus is doing as a city, but that is a hard pill to force on upper middle class folks in say Mayfield Hts (east side of cleveland) who don't want anything to do with the Cleveland school system. It's a matter of prejudice. But clearly these aren't matters to solved on a coaster board.

I just wish that there were more parks near a major city so i can live in the environment i prefer AND have a job that i want.

To answer your question, the Columbus convention center is within two blocks of the arena, movie theater, a dozen restaurants, the North Market and the Short North area. But I'm going to shut up now, 'cause you obviously know a lot more about city development than I do. ;)
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A day is a drop of water in the ocean of eternity. A week is seven drops.

Gene: I don't know what downtown Cleveland you've been in, but as someone who used to work in the E. 9th corridor, I can tell you that the area around Gund/Jacob's Field has been booming since they opened. With a couple of notable failures, overall I've noticed fairly consistant traffic.

Winking Lizard is one of my favorite watering holes down there, and if you've never had breakfast at this little dump in the Old Arcade, you haven't lived.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM

Wow lots of people from near me! I live in Liberty township right now near Youngstown and go to Youngstown State University.

go Penguins, I suppose...

^__^

Edit: I was raised in western PA and YES we say "pop" too. I have to say Pittsburgh is my favorite city in this region, well over anything here in OH. Sorry guys!

*** This post was edited by Natalie 4/4/2003 12:19:51 PM ***

Hey, I work and go to school at Youngstown State. I work in the Eduaction building. The Peguins had the best Division I-AA football team, that is until Coach Tressel, turned the OSU Buckeyes into a championship team. Success follows that man everywhere. I'm proud to be from Ohio. Half of those things on that list apply to me and Cleveland is my city of choice.
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Fear, not the distance from which you fall, however, the velocity with which you hit the ground.

Born in Painesville (okay, technically Euclid) and lived in Lake County till I was 9. Moved to Sandusky. Thank you, God. Then I moved to Chicago, which sucks; 5 hour drive to CP. Oh well. I cannot express my love for Ohio in words. People may think we're boring, but we think they're stupid snobs. That is all I have to say.

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Well, I used to be able to see TTD from my house, then I moved.
Life's not fair.

Chicago rocks. Not living near CP is a small inconvenience. But Ohio's cool, too.

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A day is a drop of water in the ocean of eternity. A week is seven drops.

Education building at YSU? My chosen subjects are chemistry and CS so you will never see me there. :)

True there is activity in what the city calls the Euclid/Prospect neighborhood (from public square to about E 9th from Euclid to Gateway). But it's hard to credit the Gateway complex for it. It is also true that many of the restaurants and bars benefited from the success of the Indians franchise; but like all sporting venues, the draw (if there is any, do you really think that the Gund has ANY impact on the surrounding neighborhood's economy?) is sporradic at best. Floods of people a few nights a week for even six months is hardly something that a resturant proprietor could live off of with the rents of the Downtown. The success of the area comes from what i believe to be fantastic redevopment of the neighborhoods mixed use buildings. The influx of residents ensure a market for the restaurants and whatnot year round. Coupled with the lunch crowd mon through fri and now you have something.

Another issue is the actual design of the neighborhood. Look at the Warhouse District. By far the most successful CBD (including the Flats) neighborhood in Cleveland, and it was done only with housing. There is some comercial office space, but there are no convention centers, sporting venues or other grand saviors of the urban realm. Just a walking neighborhood with increasing services for the local residents (ie, convienent shops and video stores). Walking is the key. Keep the people on the streets and it seems safer. With people on the streets it is more interesting to be there. With people on the streets there are more potential customers for all kinds of business. Urban neighborhoods must be pedestrian friendly to have success. And that is the link between the Warehouse and Prospect districts.

I am not familiar with the Columbus Convention Center Den, but i wonder if any of that development near it is actually next to it on the block or across the street. Like i stated earlier, convention centers do nothing for downtown development other than hotels. Most of the time they are linked to these hotels and parking decks via bridges or tunnels eliminating what little population the hall brings into the city. They never hit the street to look into the stores or restaurants. I would wager that the developement of the neighborhood around the center is as coincedental as the success of the Prospect neighborhood. Think who goes to these places and why. While important for the city to have these edifices, they will not "save" the downtown, or even one neighborhood because of who they draw and how little they draw in the great sceme of things.

Read Sig... Proud of it too

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I AM CANADIAN
why aren't you?
Anti Bush, Anti War

I disagree still, Gene (not just to disagree... just making an observation). The restaurants in the Gateway area could easily thrive from lunch traffic alone, if you ask me. Look at the Winking Lizard down there. That property is easily the coolest one down there, being on a point with Huron there, and they pack them in every afternoon.

The Warehouse district isn't thriving because of housing. Yes, there is a need for it and yes it is selling, but the development there can be attributed to the clubs, in my opinion. The Flats have quickly turned back into the dump they started out as, and there's more foot traffic clubing in the Warehouse area these days.

All of these are factors, I'll agree with you there, but urban living has a long way to go to really make a strong impact on the neighborhoods. Just look at the area around E. 12 with The Reserve and other apartment buildings there.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM

The thing about the warehouse district is that there is now foot traffic there at all times of the day, no matter the day of the week. Before the decline in the Flats there was a thriving restaurant and art scene in the warehouse district. Furthermore there are other businesses serving a resident population. It has multiple retail and entertainment outlets. I argue (in a debating sense of course) that the thiving night scene came because of the other positive qualities that the neighborhood had developed, not the other way around. Because a measurable resident population existed as the clubs opened on W 6th.

As for Prospect, it is quite possible that the restaurants could have survived on lunch traffic alone, but that still isn't derived from the Gateway complex. The other new factor in the neighborhood that can save the overload of restaurants and bars in the neighborhood is the new hotels opened in the Colonial and Euclid Arcades.

Clearly the housing scene in the American CBD is far for secure. It's a relatively new idea in many ways. Even pre WWII development was outside of the central market. Anyway, it is another good observation that e 12th (the third large houseing district in the CBD) is not as far along as the Warehouse or even Prospect. It's location in primarily office space is detrimental. Furthermore the style of retial development in the area is all inward looking mall type crap. Very boring to walk that area of DT. It's lack of success to this point only fortifies my beliefs that the physical fabric is a major part to sustailable development.

In sumary i think my point has meandered here and there so i will sumerize. Convention centers and sporting venues will not save the midwest CBD. It creates nothing that will contribute to sustainable growth (mearly some nightlife that is sporadicaly used and hotel beds). The old cities of the US have to look to different uses for the old centers, like housing, entertainment as well as try to hold onto its status as the center of business. But the key is getting people to actually want to go there and get out of the car and take a look around.