$200,000 a year spent at Disney?

ApolloAndy:

Maybe I'm "Coasterbuzzing" again

If you really want to Coasterbuzz it up we can talk about our over reliance on personal vehicles in America and ask why taxpayers are subsidizing a trillion dollar industry. :)

Vater:
But I admit the thought of the eventual phase-out of the ICE is depressing.

It may not happen within our lifetime but the oil will dry up. What's depressing to me is that we used it up so quickly and any effort to conserve it is scoffed at by the general population.

Vater:

I'm actually perfectly fine with electric vehicles. As a car guy and a driving enthusiast I just don't want one. Not that anyone asked. But I admit the thought of the eventual phase-out of the ICE is depressing.

This is me, too. Hell, I refuse to even buy a car with an automatic transmission. I enjoy the process of driving and want the least amount of automation possible. EVs are a great way to go for some people (the power you get right off the line is drool-worthy) but not for me, not yet. Once they kill all the manuals, then maybe.

eightdotthree:
I tried to buy a Toyota Rav 4 Prime but the salesman had no idea when we could one.

You can't even buy them in PA. We were looking at one for my wife, and you had to drive to New York or Maryland to purchase it, if they could get it. This would be perfect for her, as she's work from home ever since 2020, and 99% of her driving is to the kids' schools, games, or the store. I'd imagine even with a 60 mile range she might go months without using any gas at all with a plug in hybrid. We ended up with the Rav 4 XLE hybrid, moving from an average 15mpg Pilot to the average 45mpg Rav is quite a savings on gas. Almost cancels out the payment.

In terms of environmental judginess, let he without sin cast the first stone.

That's sort of a "Perfect is the enemy of good" argument.

Like, if you exist, you have a carbon footprint. Is it so unreasonable to discuss how we can collectively reduce our carbon footprints, both individually and collectively and is there no place to make judgements collectively about what, as a society, we think is worth the carbon expenditure and what isn't?

Unless you're passive aggressively trying to nod at a specific thing that a specific poster said or did (cruises?) in which case maybe just be more direct?

Before anyone gets to judgy please look into what substances are put into those batteries and how they’re mined. You’re supporting childhood slavery, as is anyone who owns a smart phone or any other lithium battery. No technology is clean, or green for that matter. Battery waste issues are real. If the EV market can fix those issues, then I’ll consider giving up my convenience until then, short of becoming a pedestrian only, no transportation is pure.

Anecdotally we spent 1.5 hours charging against 7.5 hours driving on our drive from Chicago to Pittsburgh this past summer. Our total charging time from Chicago through Pittsburgh, Hershey, New York, Boston, and back was 12 hours. That doesn't include the 3+ hour we had to wait for chargers to be available. Compare that to roughly 60 hours of drive time and an ICE is way more convenient than driving on Electrify America's network. That being said, the hassle wasn't a deal breaker. In our daily commutes the hassle of having two electrified cars just isn't there.

The production of electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles is more carbon intensive that combustion engines. But over the lifetime of the cars electric and hybrid win, unless you are trading in a car every three years. At that point though you probably aren't too concerned about your carbon footprint.

Andy brings up a good point that everyone has a carbon footprint, and incidentally you can only reduce it so much. I argue that our biggest issue isn't our carbon emissions but the exponentially growing global population. I imagine that if we were producing carbon at our current levels but with a population from 40 years ago, we really wouldn't have a problem.

I've been thinking about this some, and wonder if the answer for me might be to own an EV for day-to-day driving, and rent something for the very infrequent road trip.

This is exactly how we rolled for our first year with a very range limited Nissan Leaf. We still had a gas car at the time. But the average American commute (here come the anecdotes!) is about 41 miles per day, round trip. So I used that car to drive to work, and even plugged it into a standard 110V outlet every night, ready to go by morning. Most of our driving, probably 99% of it, is in that window. When we bought the second car, at 240 miles, we figured we'd just rent a car if we were worried about it. We road tripped in it anyway, and once during a hurricane no less. Never had an issue, and once we got comfortable charging enough for the next planned stop (instead of "filling"), the stops were short, even when there were burritos or ice cream.

Vater:

I don't want to drive and work on ICE cars for hobby only.

I do respect this view. Within a month of owning my first car, it threw a rod, and with my dad's help I learned very quickly how to replace an engine, and how it all works. I understood the car in a non-trivial way, and took a lot of pride in that. Mind you, it was also necessary because it was a beater. Something was always breaking. No car after that required that kind of attention, though I did replace alternators in two friends' cars, and one radiator in another.

ApolloAndy:
That's sort of a "Perfect is the enemy of good" argument.

A thousand times this. There are a hundred counter arguments that go like this, and really, most of them aren't good when you actually start doing the math. For example...

Touchdown:
No technology is clean, or green for that matter. Battery waste issues are real. If the EV market can fix those issues, then I’ll consider...

Sure, but there is a mountain of research that shows that EV's (and BEHV's) are a substantial improvement. Just today there was good news about emissions. Again, if perfect is the enemy of good, there's always an excuse not to act. And there's the usual, "But my electricity comes from coal!" argument. I did that math a few years ago, because economy of scale matters:

The EPA says the average carbon footprint of driving a combustion engine car one mile is 411g of CO2. Generating a single kWh of electricity from a coal plant generates about 900g of CO2. So using that coal powered electricity in a Leaf at 4 miles per kWh costs 225g, and the Model S at 3.5 miles per kWh costs 257g. Already, we're at a 38% reduction per mile assuming it's 100% coal generated electricity. Natural gas generates on average 465g of CO2 per kWh, so now we're at 116g for the Leaf and 132g for the Model S, a reduction of 72% and 68%, respectively, compared to burning gas. That's a massive difference.

It's one thing if you happen to like the sounds of a combustion engine and like to work on old cars. I get that. But if we're being intellectually honest, not only is the EV transition inevitable, it's necessary. No amount of politics will make climate change less of a thing.

Just opened Threads and this was on my timeline…

I mean, cool anecdote I guess. Certainly not a reason to say, screw it, we can't do this. It's not for me. I could literally say this about any Wawa stations when they open in Florida, for gas.

Is it so unreasonable to discuss how we can collectively reduce our carbon footprints, both individually and collectively and is there no place to make judgements collectively about what, as a society, we think is worth the carbon expenditure and what isn't?

Is this an objective determination or a popularity contest (or even worse, a political one)? I am not critical of fact that decisions have to be made (nature of the beast) but rather the judginess that accompanies it. In my experience, someone who self identifies as an environmentalist is many times more likely to be judgmental, randomly selective and hypocritical than your average bear. And if you go around telling people you drive an electric vehicle, your chance of being a total d-bag increase by a factor of 10.

Ultimately, any plan/budget dealing with climate change needs to include a significant amount of planning/funding for mitigation. Likely we will need it.

There are still considerable hurdles before EV become dominant, we need more fast chargers, we need more lithium (if everyone in the US wanted to convert today they couldn’t because we literally don’t mine enough lithium.). I’m pretty sure it will happen eventually, but not in the next 5 or even 10 years, I see it more in the 20-30 year range. My 2020 Traverse has 76,000 miles on it (yes I’m way outside the norm, averaging 20k a year, the pandemic is why my car only has 76k) and is 4 years old (bought in Dec 2019) I expect to buy a car in 1-2 years and it’s going to be ICE again. We’ll see where the world is 2032 when I’ll need a car again.

Jeff:

Certainly not a reason to say, screw it, we can't do this. It's not for me.

It points to the experience that Muffinator had on his trip and what I think is coming in 2024 when more manufacturers are added to Tesla’s network. We’re going to need a bigger boat.

Ohio became the first state in the US to activate a National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure funded EV charging station earlier this month. Construction is expected to start soon on 24 more fast charging stations with NEVI funding. Part of another public-private partnership infrastructure project. Other similar projects across the country.

https://governor.ohio.gov/m...i-chargers

Jeff:

I could literally say this about any Wawa stations when they open in Florida, for Hoagiefest

FTFY

The funny thing is, I didn't even mention that Wawa has superchargers at so many of their locations now. They get it. Their business isn't gas, it's just the thing to get people in the store. It sure seems like they're seeing the future if they're already adopting these.

GoBucks89:

...the judginess that accompanies it...

See also any other socioeconomic imperative that society faces. Seems to me that not enough people understand that this is one of those.

Regarding some of the other things...

• Charging infrastructure. I've said this before, but this doesn't matter as much as people think. People have to get out of the mindset of gas stations. EV's are like cell phones. You get home and you charge them overnight. For the two-thirds of Americans that have a garage, this is your charging infrastructure. The actual challenge here is to get multi-family units to install in their parking lots.
• Something like 98% of all American consumer driving is local, but in the event that you do need public charging, there's more there than you realize. Tesla alone is everywhere. There are definitely areas that are underserved relative to demand (parts of California in particular), but that isn't typical.
• But the grid! Ask Norway about this, whose car sales are more than 80% EV now. It's fine. As utilities continue to diversify and distribute generation, this matters even less. (Unless you're Texas, because Texas.)
• Mineral content for batteries is plentiful enough to convert the entire global fleet of vehicles and supply utilities, but as is the case with raw materials for anything, there's an environmental cost to it. People seem to think that iron is this magical substance that doesn't also come from the ground. And unlike oil taken from the ground, the minerals used in batteries are actually recycled. And this all assumes that battery technology is static, which it's not. It's unlikely that we'll continue to use the same mineral content indefinitely.

I don't understand why, intellectually, there is this odd objection to the transition, mostly for reasons that are either poorly understood or surmountable challenges. It's bad enough we as a society don't seem intent to fix anything hard (racism, hunger, healthcare), let alone something that is already starting because it's the logical outcome with the most economic opportunity. Fortunately American companies are leading the EV transition, but we already lost in the sustainable energy effort. China makes more batteries, and owns solar (and produces four times the renewable energy that we do), and China and Europe lead in wind turbine production. One of the great new manufacturing opportuntities in history, and we're following.

So, yeah, "We can't" is exhausting. We choose not to.

In this part of the country Sheetz has superchargers. And much like Wawa they do more than gas- carry out, fast hot food, potty stop, etc, so there’s a good reason visit while charging. They run .25 a minute.

GoBucks89:

Ohio became the first state in the US to activate a National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure funded EV charging station earlier this month

NYT had an article on this initiative just today. Gift article/no paywall.

Lede paragraphs:

More than two years ago, lawmakers approved billions of dollars to build out a national electric vehicle charging network in the hopes of encouraging more drivers to switch to cleaner cars. The money, included in the bipartisan infrastructure law, was intended to help assure drivers they could reliably travel longer distances without running out of power.

But a robust federal charging network is still years away. Only two states — Ohio and New York — have opened any charging stations so far. A handful of others have broken ground on projects in recent weeks, with the aim of completing them in early 2024. In total, 28 states, plus Puerto Rico, have either awarded contracts to build chargers or started accepting bids for projects as of Dec. 15. The rest are much further behind on starting construction.

Jeff:

I could literally say this about any Wawa stations when they open in Florida, for gas.

This drives me nuts. Its so easy to pull into a WaWa with damn near every pump full and see nobody around the cars. Is it that difficult to move your car to a parking space after pumping?

See also any other socioeconomic imperative that society faces.

This just helps prove my point. Which isn't surprising.

If everyone looking to buy a new car next year wanted an electric one, the supply doesn't exist. So any hesitance isn't having a significant impact at this point.

I have two 10-year old cars. Almost 300k miles between them. If it were up to me (and knocking on wood), wouldn't be in the market for another vehicle for another 5 years for one and 7+ for the other. Wife likely won't wait that long to replace hers though. Will see what is available at the time and certainly willing to consider electric. Have electrified other aspects of our lives and look to do more of that where it makes sense/works. Not where it doesn't though. Expect that will change over time as tech improves.

One of my daughter's friends thinks Sheetz is the best restaurant in town.