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Jeff I’m glad the EV works for you, but it won’t for me. I drive back and forth to Gatlinburg twice a year, to Sandusky and Mason once a year, Branson once a year, and do at least one long haul road trip for 2-3 weeks. I recognize I am not normal, but I am the exception. 30 min stops every 200 miles is not acceptable to me.

It's not 30... nevermind.

Vater:

Is it because combustion vehicles are going to make the Earth uninhabitable any minute now like we've been hearing for 50+ years from the alarmists?

I'm not sure who the alarmists are that you speak of. But is there urgency? Considering how slow we've been to do anything at all, it's not like we can flip a switch tomorrow and say, "That's far enough."

• Warming since the 80's has been at 3x the rate of what it was in the hundred years before that.
• Sea level rise has followed a similar curve.
• NASA says CO2, the primary greenhouse gas, is 50% higher than at any time before the industrial revolution, going back a million years.
• NASA also says the area of inhabitable earth affected by severe weather is on a sharp rise, and drought and flood areas have tripled in the last seven years, suggesting we may have hit a tipping point.
• The US military has repeatedly raised the concern about not just the effect on their assets around the world, but the impact caused by climate-induced migration. When people can't grow food, they move, destabilizing geopolitical policy, immigration and food supplies.

Sure, I'll be dead before it gets really bad, but it seems like kind of a dick move to kick the can down the road. You can't rapidly fix it. It's like investing, if you don't start early, you may never catch up.

Does anyone really think that thousands of academic researchers have conspired to make stuff up? I know it's fashionable to be skeptical of our institutions, but this is pretty settled science.

The charging might take 20 min, but the exiting, driving to the charger, plugging in the charger, and then doing the reverse take time too. When I say a gas stop takes 10-15 min that’s the time from entering the exit ramp, to exiting the on ramp.

I get it, you're an outlier, this won't work for you.

But still... if we're using the i4 as an example, it will give you about 250 miles range on 1/2 hour charge. So on a 1,000 mile trip, you'll need to stop a total of 3 times, adding 90 minutes on to your trip. You said above that 10 hours of driving takes you 12-13 with stops. This is no different.

At the end of the day, I truly do not care. I just like math or something.

Not every stop is for gas, those stops still happen. Thats why the math doesn’t math.

There's also a simplicity and convenience factor. I take a decent amount of trips and I don't want to have to use an app to figure out where the chargers are. I know gas stations have gas and they have big signs and are easy to spot. I don't know who has chargers.

I figure in a few more years the chargers should be pretty ubiquitous but for now I'll stick to ICE. Need gas? Pull off, get gas, pee, move on.

Jeff:

Do I? It's not my problem that people can't do math.

Yes, if you expect movement. It's not the people's problem that they can't be convinced to care about the math.

Jeff:
The Model Y is the best selling car in the US, for three years, so apparently someone is making a decent argument.

But not good enough because you're lamenting the incredibly low adoption rates and general malaise the public has towards electric vehicles.

And while both are true in the same breath, it does make for convenient arguing.

The Model Y was the best selling car, in 2025 the Camry was back on top.

Jeff:

Sure, how often do you do that?

It doesn't matter. For me, and many others, it's still a consideration. And that will continue to be the case until charging infrastructure and EV range have parity with non-EV vehicles. We're just not there yet. We may be close, but that's not close enough for me any many others. And telling people their priorities are wrong isn't a compelling argument.

Jeff:
Because airplanes, mostly.

For the dates we're planning, it would cost us more than $3,000 to fly (via Spirit FFS, and around $6,000 via Delta, WTF is going on with airfare?!?), before parking our car, checking a bag, or renting a car at our destination. Driving will cost maybe half that including gas, meals, road snacks, and lodging. If money were no object, sure, we'd drive our EV to the airport and pay the extra two grand or whatever to get on a plane (thus wiping out much/all of the savings realized by having an EV in the first place, by the way), but money is an object for us.

I'm mostly just watching this conversation because I don't have a car now, and won't want to own one as long as I'm in New York, and on the other hand am curious what options will exist whenever I decide I need a car.

We're clearly in a transitional moment, and it isn't clear how long that will last, but I do think when the tipping point comes, it's going to look like the transition from film to digital. The change will happen rapidly (not as rapidly as cameras, because cars are expensive) and afterward, while there will be uses for gasoline/diesel, they'll be niches.

And I got to thinking about whether there will be anything like our current gas stations in 30 years. Charging technology will probably advance so that a charge doesn't take much longer than a fill-up. But even so, there won't really be any reason for a centralized place to charge, the way gasoline delivery and storage demands a gas station. Already any major hotel has charging facilities. So do big box stores and malls. The process of a "fill up" will be, we're going to do two errands or each lunch, and you'll just assume there will be a charging dock.

And, if charging speed doesn't improve, nobody is going to want to hang around a Sheetz for 30-40 minutes looking at beef jerky.

Of course, this would all happen a lot faster if we didn't have a president who had been captured by the fossil fuel industry and various petrostates.

Ugh, I'd kill to not have a car at all. There aren't many places in the US where you could really get away with that, unfortunately.

You're right though, I think that tipping point will be visibly obvious. Again, in my immediate area, it already happened, but when I get even to the other side of town, it's not clear what's going on. It used to be all Model 3's and Y's, but Hyundai/Kia is making a killing now. They are everywhere here. The "exotics" (Porsche Taycan, the Mercedes, Vinfast, and dare I say the VW id.BUZZ) are more rare, but I do see them.

Lord Gonchar:

But not good enough because you're lamenting the incredibly low adoption rates and general malaise the public has towards electric vehicles.

I'm lamenting? I just said US was behind the rest of the world. A 10% rise in sales, 3.6 million units, in 2025 doesn't strike me as malaise. Press coverage makes it sound like a reverse trend, which I don't understand.

Lamenting may have been a loaded verb.

It's not about the number sold. I honestly don't care...even a little. It's more about the terrible argument that everyone else is wrong for not thinking like you.

Which was my point. The argument you made (it's cheaper over the life to own electric) is not incorrect, but it's wholly ineffective to move the US market. Otherwise, our chart would look like some other countries and we wouldn't talk about being so far behind.

That's all my point was.

You complained, offered a no more compelling argument other than "people can't do math" and should think like you.

You pulled a me.

djDaemon:

And telling people their priorities are wrong isn't a compelling argument.

Exactly.

Folks have given a myriad a real-world reasons it may not or does not work for them.

And if they're truly wrong and those are unfound fears or obstacles that are easily overcome, I suspect it's going to take a better argument than "You can't do math."

Jeff:
I just said US was behind the rest of the world. A 10% rise in sales, 3.6 million units, in 2025 doesn't strike me as malaise

It not malaise, it's just not good enough then?

Not enough people are buying electric cars because they can't math, but sales are fine...just not as good as they could be.

That's an annoying and frustrating position to defend against.

(And we all must be weird edge use cases around here, because my argument is that I use my vehicle so little that I'd be willing to bet my ICE vehicle causes less damage to the world around us than the "average person" driving 15k miles a year in an electric. So when do I get to preach at Tesla owners for killing my planet?)

Honestly, hambone has us all here with the 'no car' angle.

hambone:
...nobody is going to want to hang around a Sheetz for 30-40 minutes looking at beef jerky.

There's an Epstein files joke here.

(Seriously, you guys see the weird jerky stuff?)

Not having a car requires the combination of a "15-minute neighborhood" (nobody wants to have to take a bus to get a gallon of milk) plus enough public transportation to connect you to the rest of the world. Even in my 15 minute neighborhood there's not a movie theater and there's only a couple of nicer restaurants. There aren't too many places that give you both the walkability and the public transport, even in cities. And can you imagine living in Celebration without a car?

(I can't imagine living in Celebration, but that's another matter.)

I truly don't understand the suburbs being thrown up near my mom in Ohio, where people live 500 feet from a Starbucks but would have to walk a mile across a totally unappealing landscape to get there.

And I'm promising myself I'm not going to google "Epstein beef jerky".

The area I live in has intentionally diverse zoning, requiring schools, retail, some light industrial and housing units from McMansions to apartments, with small housing lots. It doesn't put us in "walkable" territory, but even in (electric) cars, nothing is very far away. It's a decent compromise, I guess, compared to the urban sprawl that happened around Columbus in the 90's, for example.

Lord Gonchar:

You pulled a me.

This is the most self-aware thing you've posted in ages. 🙂

You complained, offered a no more compelling argument other than "people can't do math" and should think like you.

My argument, compelling or not, isn't that people should think like me. Quite the opposite, really. I'm not special in any way, as average as can be, and all of the stated roadblocks haven't been roadblocks. And I'm sure it's my neurodivergence talking, but "I drive a thousand miles once a year!" is not at all a logical argument.

You mileage may vary (and by vary I mean it costs twice as much).

hambone:

am curious what options will exist whenever I decide I need a car

I tend to drive cars into the ground, but the one I have now is 12 years old so I may be getting close depending on what breaks next. So far, it's only been garden variety stuff plus the occasional tie rod, but eventually I am going to have a single repair that is a substantial fraction of the value of the car, at which point I will probably move on. For example, I am now in the "check the power steering fluid every couple of weeks" phase of ownership.

My driving pattern is probably pretty typical of a townie. About 17 miles round trip to/from work, so throw in errands and maybe 35 miles/day at most, usually less. A level 2 in my garage would be more than enough for an EV to cover all of that. Most day trips (e.g. from here to Cedar Point and back) are sub 250, so I'd probably shoot for something with 300 mile "practical" range or above.

I do take the infrequent road trip. Maybe once every 18 months or two years. I figure the solution to that will be a gas-powered rental. I don't know why that's an option no one ever mentions, because it seems like a pretty obvious one to me. If the total cost of ownership unfolds the way I think it will, there is room for the cost of an infrequent rental if you own an EV and keep it for a long enough period of time before replacement.

https://www.caranddriver.co...er-to-own/

Agreed about EV + rentals, and as I think about my summer travel that's probably going to be the solution. The alternative is my mom's 2004 Altima which she keeps "just in case."

I will also throw out the following observation:

I often hear how painful it would be to have to stop and recharge my car when I am on a trip. However, I would pay real money to never have to put gas in my car in sub-freezing temperatures ever again. And, with an EV, I wouldn't have to. So, I suspect there is a decent argument that for many typical driving patterns, even those that include an EV on infrequent road trips with recharge stops, your "total time spent waiting for energy" goes down.

(And yes, I know I would not have to freeze-fuel if I just moved south, but I just bought this house, so I am not going anywhere anytime soon.)

You would still have to get outside and hook up the charger. Also, you will lengthen your charging session if you keep your car on to keep it heated while you wait.

To me, the rental option depends on how often you take long trips on the road. One every 18 months is a lot different than 7-8 a year. With kids living in CT and WI, there are 3-4 visits to each/year. Meeting my daughter in upstate NY in a couple weeks to ski. My wife and I have always like road trips (kids grew up liking them too and continue as adults) and driving to Acadia is a trip we have done multiple times. Renting a car once a month isn't something I am interested in. And I drive my cars into the ground as well. Current one is 13 years old and I plan to get another 5 years out of it (though understand its just a major repair away from being salvage material). Drove from hotel near Roosevelt Arch at Yellowstone to Minneapolis in a day. About 1000 miles and north of 14 hours drive time. Van we had most of my kids' childhood had a 500 mile range. We tended to be very efficient in terms of stops. Just worked for us. Did some road trips with other families and we had to drive separately because first trip, they stopped every 90-120 minutes which drove everyone in my car crazy. Trips were fine. We just had to take different paths there.

I hate stopping. Would rather drive farther and stop less often than drive shorter and stop more often. And making a trip a 2 day drive is painful to me. Know people who past 5-6 hours means getting a hotel. Works for them.

I would be fine living in a walkable area but not if it means small lots (which it pretty much has to by definition). No interest in that at all. And I think more people talk longingly about living in walkable communities than actually want to live and actually walk in one. Friends who live in what are very walkable communities end of driving pretty much everywhere they do (I think its easy to find excuses: its cold, its raining, I am in a hurry, etc). Number of people I see waiting for someone else to push a cart to their vehicle, load their trunk and back out of a parking spot when there were at least 5 open spots 30 feet further from the store door amazes me. But ultimately, nearest store is about 2 miles from my house and its a $$ store. So we drive pretty much everywhere.

Much of the US was built after the advent of the automobile. Much of Europe was not. And in each case it shows in how people live/travel there. What works/is accepted in one won't necessarily work/be accepted in the other.

Winter in NE Ohio has become my favorite season as I have gotten older. This winter has been great. But as my wife reminds me from time to time, most people don't agree. So many people essentially hibernate during the winter. Though I just found out that bats have a right to hibernate/live in my house for 8 months a year and I can only exclude them 4 months. Rabies vaccines be damned.

My next car likely will be an EV. But in 5 years, I am expecting more options and infrastructure to support it. Though by that point my kids my realize trying to raise a family without family nearby isn't so wonderful. Son and his wife have already gotten there. Question is how long does it take for them to do anything about it.

Ultimately, different people are different.

Touchdown:

You would still have to get outside and hook up the charger

But he wouldn't, except maybe once every 18 months, by his description. I don't think people really appreciate just how fundamentally different it is to charge overnight, at home. I think about "fueling" so infrequently that it's essentially not a concern. No need to find the cheapest station, or stop before or after work.