Wooden Coaster Trains.
Mamoosh said:
Parks who wanted PTC trains with their new CCI coaster would work with PTC directly.
And, fortunately, IB wanted a train for the CornBall that was exactly like the trains on the Hoosier Hurricane.
Jeffrey R Smith said:
Subjectivley speaking...when I ride on a g-train it feels very light. I'd compare it to the feel of riding a grocery cart on the blacktop! It just feels a bit weak to me!On the other hand, the standard PTC feels much heavier and more sturdy. This would be like riding a freight train on the blacktop (if I knew what that really felt like)!
Anyhow, I believe I can "feel" the cheapness of the g-train. I could just be crazy though...
That is EXACTLY how I feel, I would rather ride a PTC train on a rough coaster over a G train ANY DAY. It does feel light and cheap and crappy.
The reason S&S coasters use PTC trains is that PTC isn't worried S&S isn't going to stiff them like CCI did.
When the Legend was announced, Will Koch was asked why the park opted for Gerstlauer trains. I seem to recall that he candidly remarked at the time that not only were the Gerstlauer trains at the recommendation of CCI, but also that there were some unspecified 'unresolved issues' with the PTC train on the Raven.
After a year of operation, all the Gerstlauer trains got new lap bars. A look at one of the ex-Legend lap bars that got sold to enthusiasts in a variety of benefit auctions suggests why the Gerstlauers all got new lap bars: a rod was added through the end of the bar, presumably to prevent the two welds on the end of the bar from breaking.
After another year, The Legend got a second train. Instead of buying a second Gerstlauer, or buying a second PTC and running the Gerstlauer on the Raven, or buying two Gerstlauers and putting the Raven's PTC out to pasture, Holiday World bought two new PTC trains for the Legend.
What this tells me is that whatever issues there might have been with the PTC trains were either resolved (a distinct possibility), or were not nearly as serious as the issues with the Gerstlauer trains. Obviously there were some "durability concerns" (i.e. broken lap bars and detached grab handles) with various Gerstlauer trains around the country; I also have to think that ride quality...which goes straight to the seat cushions...played into the decision. After all, all of the Top 10 ranked coasters run PTC or GCI trains, and there is a reason for that. Just look through this thread...for all their faults, the PTC trains overall give the better ride.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
2004 Mitch's Poll (8 PTCs, 1 GCI, 1 Intamin)
1. Shivering Timbers - Michigan's Adventure
2. Boulder Dash - Lake Compounce
3. Phoenix - Knoebel's
4. Tremors - Silverwood
5. Thunderhead - Dollywood
6. Raven - Holiday World
7. Balder - Liseberg
8. The Legend - Holiday World
9. Megafobia - Oakwood
10 Aska - Nara Dreamland
2004 Amusement Today Golden Tickets (8 PTCs, 2 GCIs)
1. Boulder Dash - Lake Compounce
2. Shivering Timbers - Michigan’s Adventure
3. Raven - Holiday World
4. Phoenix - Knoebels Amusement Resort
5. Legend - Holiday World
6. Thunderhead - Dollywood
7. Beast - Paramount’s Kings Island
8. GhostRider - Knott’s Berry Farm
9. Texas Giant - Six Flags Over Texas
10. Lightning Racer - Hersheypark
Hell, even the Beast finished in front of the first g-train ;)
When Gerstlauers are maintained well they can run very good.
Best example I can think of would be the Boss. (Which I also happen to think is fairly underrated) Even with the awkward bar sticking into your thigh during lats, it doesn't affect the ride enough to be an issue for me.
The GCII Millenium Flyers are just wonderful- like riding on a flying couch.
Mamoosh said:
I'm sure RGB's retracking has something to do with the smoother ride, too.
Excuse me, but I happen to have ALL my original parts (for better or worse). This is how nasty rumors get started you know. SHEESH!
When I rode the Beast last year I was glad to see that they added some more padding since the last time I was there. I remember riding it in '98 and limping most of the day afterwards from the bruise on my hip.
I wish PTC's were a little wider so they could add more padding and most people could still fit in them.
The way I figure, the trains do make a difference in the overall ride experience, but everything has to be right from the design on up.
Good train + Bad Design + Good Track = Bad Ride experience
Bad Train + Good Design + Good Track = Bad Ride experience
Good Train + Good Design + Bad Track = Bad Ride experience
Bad Train + Bad Design + Bad Track = SOB
J
Picture a boat trailer you hitch up to your truck. The rear axle of your truck is supporting both the back of your truck and the front of your trailer.
It's kind of like that.
The only coaster I know of still running a trailered PTC train is the Predator at Darien Lake. The lead car is a standard PTC articulated car (two axles, rear axle can roll +/- 3 degrees) and all the other coaches are trailered. On the trailered car, the single axle is a little bit forward of the wheel position on the articulated car, and that is the problem.
Think of John's boat trailer again. If you take the boat off so that you can lift the trailer yourself, and you lift the front of the trailer and swing it sideways, the trailer will pivot on a point centered between the wheels. That means the back end of the trailer will translate *the opposite direction*. On the PTC and NAD trailered trains, they put the hitch on the back of the train, so the hitch holding the next car translates in the wrong direction when the train goes around a curve, causing the shuffling that we know and hate.
Everybody else puts the hitch in-line with the axle, so that the hitch stays in the center of the track when the car goes around a curve. That works really well. Most manufacturers do that by putting the axle between cars or at the extreme rear end of the car, but Vekoma does it on the 700J by putting the hitch under the middle of the car.
Wisdom and Schiff/Molina/GACC are the oddballs. They put the wheels in the middle of the car and the hitch on the back of their trailers...but they offset the hitch to the inboard side, as their trains only have to turn left (and in fact are incapable of turning right).
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
The problems became evident soon after the first installation, but Dinn still insisted they build new trailered trains, even when their previous clients had already sent the trains back to PTC for modifications.
What I wonder about...
I'm no engineer (heck, I'm barely a mechanic...) so I don't know if this is practical without structural changes or not. But PTC's trailered train design puts the wheels very near the car's longitudinal center of mass. What that means is that as the car sits on the track, its total weight is nicely balanced on the wheel set, which should minimize the tongue weight, which means good things for the hitch.
I wonder if the car structure and hitch can handle the load if the wheel sets were moved back and positioned in-line with the hitch. It might be necessary to redesign the hitch with one of those ridiculously-strong spherical bearings like GCI uses, but if the car chassis could handle the strain of dividing the load between the hitch and the wheels, just moving the road wheels back under the hitch would probably fix that train design. Not only would it fix the train design, I think it might represent a significant improvement over the articulated train and make the PTC trailer one of the best train designs on the market.
The trick to that would be convincing coaster builders that "PTC" + "trailer" does not necessarily equal "Predator".
Heck, between Raging Wolf Bobs, Texas Giant, Hercules, and Thunder Run, there ought to be enough used-and-abused PTC trailered cars out there to experiment with... :)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
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