Will fuel prices hold you back this summer?

Jeff, what are well-maintained roads?

It's orange barrel season again....

-Josh (who recently found out how Brunswick funds its road maintenance.....)

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Jeff said:
please qualify how SUV's are better in snow

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You asked how they were better in the snow. That's what I was responding to.

I'll still take my heavy 4 wheel drive capable vehicle over a small, light weight two wheel vehicle when driving on ice. Weight is everything. That's why people who drive small trucks load the back end down with sand bags during the winter. More weight means a better traction.

I will agree that the vast majority of SUV drivers never take it off road further than a grass parking lot or a gravel road. But how many pick-up truck drivers never haul anything in the back of their trucks? They're just as bad with fuel efficiency (the non-diesel models) and just as unneccesary for everyday commutes.

I own an SUV and it is my guilty pleasure. But my beef with them is the fuel efficiency. Jeff, it seems like you hate them no matter what. If they got just as good MPG as most sedans, would you still harp on them?

My next car is most likely going to be an SUV. I'm planning on purchasing a Jeep Liberty Diesel and I hope to run it on biodiesel. I'm going to get great mpg, not going to be wasting precious natural resources, but I have a feeling you'll still tell me it doesn't offer anything more than a car. If Suburu made a diesel Outback I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but as of now, they don't.

Finally, you mention how you understand that people who live in rural areas might need the SUV's capabilities. Yet the last time this subject came up you were basically telling Tekno that he was full of crap for needing an SUV to drive up the hill (mountain) to his house. Which one is it? If it was to just give Tekno a hard time, I understand. ;)

Mike - your resident environmental attorney *** Edited 4/21/2005 4:56:11 PM UTC by Incidentalist***

Yeah... weight is everything, and in snow and ice a heavier vehicle is harder to stop. And you still keep ignoring the fact that traction is useless when you're sliding.

And if SUV's did get the same kind of efficiency that normal cars did, sure, I wouldn't have any problem with them. The forthcoming Toyota/Lexus SUV's are a step in the right direction, but they still have a ways to go. My issue is the fuel efficiency, not what people think an SUV will do for them. I only respond to what people think because it's what SUV defenders use as their mythical justification.

4-wheel drive still ups the odds of regaining traction if you're sliding. Knowing how to drive in the snow helps, too, and unfortunately too many people don't seem to have a clue.

Also, one of the reasons I mentioned SUVs 'handling better' in the snow is because of the ground clearance. More for deeper snow, but you get the point.

Ice is a different animal altogether. Anything with tires will slide on ice...but I never mentioned ice in the first place.

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Raven-Phile said:
^ Speak for yourself. I haul my drums (in soft cases) everywhere in my 2-door civic, and I have an 18x22" kick drum, which is a tight squeeze but it works.

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Yup, and I used to haul my drums in an '87 Nova; that's not the point I was trying to make. Just saying I wouldn't want to risk messing up the interior of a Mercedes.

BUT...it's a hell of a lot easier to throw them in my Explorer. ;)

*** Edited 4/21/2005 10:07:19 PM UTC by Vater***

But my SUV does do a lot for me. It really helps when hauling my wife, two large dogs, and myself, along with plenty of gear for a weekend of camping in remote areas of the Rockies.

There are also several trailheads where a car just woulnd't make it because of clearance. There are other vehicles that could handle some of these 'roads' (basically trucks), but they are just as fuel inefficient as SUV's. Even though a vehicle like a Outback has great clearance in regards to the gear box, it's floorboards would have been under water.

I love the options that the SUV gives me for carrying whatever it is I want to carry to wherever it needs to go. No car can give me what an SUV does. Sure some wagons do and I'm seriously considering them along with diesel SUVs for my next vehicle.

Right now we're thinking of moving back to the midwest. In that case I'd probably lean towards a wagon, but if we're staying in Colorado a diesel SUV will take me to the places I want to go.

But I totally agree with the fuel efficiency standards. I don't understand that the fuel efficiency standards aren't raised, well I do but I just don't like the reasons.

I'm lucky that I don't have to comute at all for work, I do it at home. If I was driving 30 miles each way to downtown Denver for work I'd feel a lot more guilty about driving my Jeep. If that were the case I'd buy a Honda Civic hybrid, Prius or diesel Jetta in a heartbeat. But by working at home I don't earn much, but the quality of life is superb.

Per the sliding on the ice. Traction is useless when sliding? Without traction any car will continue to slide right off the road. You can't regain control until you have traction or have come to a complete stop. Sure it takes longer to stop a heavier vehicle, that's true in every condition. Every time I've began to slip in my Jeep I've regained control (traction) relatively quickly. In my old Grand Am there were several times where I had to ride it out and wait until I stopped sliding because it could never get enough traction to stop the slide. I prefer 4wd.

I stand by the driver error comment from earlier. Lot's of SUV drivers drive like they are invinceable in their SUV, they are obviously wrong and they pay the price. Why do you think they started the new esuvee ad campaign? People trying to drive an SUV like a car, that's why!

*** Edited 4/21/2005 10:25:24 PM UTC by Incidentalist***

Camping, Rocky Mountains, yeah, I get it... again, that's not the bulk of drivers.

People got along fine for decades without SUV's. Our two cars have a combined 140,000 miles and there was never a single instance where we couldn't go somewhere because they were Corollas. They certainly don't need them now for road driving. The snow argument is particularly poor seeing as how the better state DOT's have managed to raise their game in recent years. It's all about the brine...

I agree that it isn't the bulk of drivers, but you never know what some of these people do on the weekends. If I had the money I'd have a nice fuel efficient car for everyday stuff and keep the Jeep for those weekend jaunts into the wilderness. But since I can't afford it (yet) I'm sure plenty of people think that I never take mine off-road either. Still, I understand and agree with that point.

People did get along fine without SUV's, but people back then weren't going to the places they are today in the numbers that are going today. Plus, before SUVs came along pickup trucks were the king of off- road travel. Again, if there was more outrage over trucks as well as SUVs it wouldn't appear to be some kind of vendetta.

It's true that they do a better job on the roads. But that doesn't help while it's snowing, especially travelling home in the dark after a full day on the slopes. But your initial argument makes it sound like you think any car is just as good in the snow as an SUV. That's just not true and I've personally driven up hills in my Jeep after watching several cars attempt the same and fail.

If I move back to the midwest there will be no justification for me to keep my current SUV and that's why I'm already scouting for a more eco-friendly replacement. Getting to remote camping spots in Missouri isn't as hard as it is out here. ;)

I never would have thought that I'd be defending SUVs this vigorously. But there is hype on both sides of this one. SUVs aren't as good as their proponents claim, but they aren't as bad as their opponents claim. In the end, I'm on your side when it comes to fuel efficiency and emmissions.

The argument for SUV's is weak. You have exceptions, and there are always exceptions. I still contend that 99% of SUV owners will never use even a fraction of the mechanical potential of them.

And if you want to talk about snow, brine does in fact aid in its removal while it's snowing. We just finished our worst snow winter on record here in Cleveland, at 103", and I drove in the worst of it. None of the major freeways ever had to close.

It never ceases to amaze me that Americans can be that stupid not to see the correlation between high gas prices and average efficiency that is about on par with 1983, before electronic fuel injection. The US department of energy says American oil consumption jumped 11% from 1999 to 2003. Most categories were flat except, you guessed it, standard unleaded gas.

You mean carrying a car load of spoiled brats to soccer practice isn't using all of the SUVs potential?

They don't use brine in Colorado.

Congress had a chance to do something about the fuel efficiency standards this week. They took a pass. I've never heard a good reason why trucks and SUVs can't get better fuel efficiency other than the fact that Congress won't impose stricter standards.

Here we are with fuel prices going up, countries such as India and China are only going to be demanding more oil in the future, and even the staunchest of neo-cons won't deny that there is a finite amount of oil on the planet and the only solution we get from W is to drill for more oil.

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Jeff said:

People got along fine for decades without SUV's. ...

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Yes they did Jeff but the did it with cars and/or wagons that had some meat and size to them. The family cars of the past could pull a boat or a camper without problem. They were comfy and they had room. They had a trunk that you could actually use. Try to take your lawn mower into the shop for a tune up in one of todays cars. I bet you can't close the trunk. People just want space. They don't want to have to go borrow a vehicle to haul something. Yesterday's full size cars and wagons are gone so people switched to SUV's.

It is still a free country and eveyone should be able to drive what they want. If you are happy with a small car that gets super milage than good for you. If you are someone who is willing to spend more at the pump and drive a larger, heavier vehicle, than good for you too.

There was a report on NBC News recently saying that the EPA's numbers on fuel efficiency were badly off, due to unreal testing cicumstances. Cars are tested at 60mph, after being warmed up with no accessories on etc., etc. So if the numbers you thought you were getting were bad, they're even worse in reality.

I see a lot of attacks on SUV's, but recently it was revealed that the real enemy was a Dodge truck with a V10 engine (you know the one they advertise with the Hemi). I've gotten used to SUV's, and it's been reported that the large SUV's like the Tahoe are becoming a thorn in GM's sorry-ass's side. It seems that people who are buying SUV's are passing the behemoths over for smaller models. The Excursion has already been discontinued. The one SUV that I just don't get at all though is the Hummer H2 or variations. My friend got one for Christmas, and all I could think was--why? He had two BMWs beforehand, so it's definitely a status thing for him. Personally, I think they have got to be the ugliest thing on four wheels. Of course, anyone buying a Hummer isn't worried about gas prices.

So here's some great tips to save on gas mileage that I've accumulated from various sources:

a) Use cruise control when possible
(I've recently started to do that again)
b) Remove uneccessary objects from the roof, such as luggage carriers if you don't need them, because they cause drag. Before my next big trip or before, I'm going to remove my roof rack, and put in the rail fillers (I don't know the technical term)
c)Make sure your tires are properly inflated. You can get a decent tire guage for cheap at Pep Boys or variations (I don't know if they're in all parts of the country, but everyone has a Wal Mart of Sam's Club)
d) Go easy on the A/C This is obviously hard for those of us who live in the Baltimore/DC area where the humidity is often stifling during July and August
e) Take out unneccessary objects from your car/truck/SUV

My own personal advice:
f) Stay out of rush-hour traffic. This is a hard one for those of us going to the park in the A.M. For example, instead of fighting the massively aggravating bumper to bumper 495/95S traffic, you could take 301S to get to King's Dominion or Busch Gardens. Sure you'll hit a lot of lights at first, but after a while it's pretty much smooth sailing. For me, I'd rather be moving and hit lights, then crawl along at 5 mph. for miles on end
g) Check traffic reports before you leave, and while you're driving. Many radio stations have traffic reports every 10 minutes. WTOP which has multiple frequencies in the D.C./Maryland/Virginia area is a great source to find out about accidents and the weather, which is always updated on the 8's of every hour.
h) Don't drive in Pennsylvania if you can avoid it:)It's truly one never-ending construction zone *** Edited 4/22/2005 2:24:32 PM UTC by Intamin Fan***

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Intamin Fan said:

Don't drive in Pennsylvania if you can avoid itIt's truly one never-ending construction zone /quote]

Yes it is, but the funny thing is, NOTHING EVER GETS FIXED HERE IN PA!! ;)

As for AC, Myth Busters busted the myth that AC saves fuel over having the window open. It may very vehicle by vehicle, but just some food for thought.

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The issue is that SUV's avoid gas-guzzler penalties because they're classified as light trucks. That's the loophole that Congress continues to choose not to fix.

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CP ismyhome said:
Yes they did Jeff but the did it with cars and/or wagons that had some meat and size to them. The family cars of the past could pull a boat or a camper without problem.

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Again, you're talking about relatively isolated exceptions. You don't take a boat to work or to the grocery store.

The fact remains... 99% of US roads are paved, the USDOT says consumer vehicles are used 95% of the time for commuting.

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CP ismyhome said:
It is still a free country and eveyone should be able to drive what they want.

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Which is a cop out and excuse to be irresponsible. That's lame. It's B.S. flag waving to justify it. If you don't start looking beyond your own death to your offspring, it's selfish. Do you not see the environmental mess we've inherited from our grandparents' generation? We're not doing a whole hell of a lot to make it better.