Why Six Flags will now fail.
Well if I ran my mouth about my sources all of the time, they wouldn't be sources now, would they?
wings51 said:
"I just want real figures, based on real research for a change. "
My conclusions are based on media buying in the Motor City more than anything else.
With regards to record attendance, see previous news story. No mystery there. "$40 million in new rides from the 'competition' still resulted in record attendance in Sandusky" isn't a theory, it's true.
-------------
Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
wings51 said:
You can bet your MF TTR's that SFO will market this park to the hilt, not only in Cleveland, but in all of the same places CP targets. So yes, the stakes are higher now, the competition is hot, and from where I sit it is welcomed. It's going to benefit all of us who enjoy these parks a great deal.
Bottom line..SFO is a real player now, enjoy it.
-cm
"
While I'll agree with you "SFO is a player"...Take a look at the National Football League team over in DC. QUITE a bit of money was spent on bringing in players and the new owner spent money on everything...When this started the rest of the league did take notice but had a wait and see attitude...Now at the end of the season....DC has nothing to show for the investment but alot of debt.
This situation is similar to what we have today...
Consider what SF bought...not much if you consider the whales and a few other marine animals have been removed...
Long term plans? have to have some of course. Let's wait and see where they are in five years...More coasters is NOT the answer. SFO needs to add "family" attractions and also HOTEL ROOMS to try to become a multi day attraction.
Finally, as a previous poster mentions...the attitude and performance of the staff has to improve greatly to handle the crowds and to insure each guest has a pleasant visit.
Is SFO a player today? No,but the potential is there...
I see SFO becoming a huge entertainment center. I large hotel to house the guests. What else is on the lake?
It looks like that SFO will be getting a majority of the Six Flags capital investments over the next 5 years.
-------------
BMCOASTER
bmcoaster@wi.rr.com
It looks like that SFO will be getting a majority of the Six Flags capital investments over the next 5 years.
-------------
BMCOASTER
bmcoaster@wi.rr.com
If you live in Chi-Town how the heck can Cleavland be closer then Sandusky?
-------------
Randy Hutchinson
You build it, I'll ride it...eventually
-------------
Randy Hutchinson
You build it, I'll ride it...eventually
For the record, when Six Flags has financial problems... "I told you so". If they don't you all can feed me my hat, but I wouldn't count on it.
-------------
Oh my freekin' head!
-------------
Oh my freekin' head!
I really hope they keep operating the two parks separatly. What a nice vacation plan it would be to have a "Double Park Package" with hotel accomodaions and transportation. Heck, they even can have a vacation getwaway package that includes Cedar Point or Kellys Island. SF really needs to get a few more hotels in there too. I think this can work, SF just need some help in customer satisfaction, they need as much local repeat business as they can get.
I tend to see this as Six Flags playing catch-up: Cedar Point is already a multi-day stay destination resort with an established presence in the market. Kings Island, similarly established.
Six Flags Ohio has only begun the work of communicating it's new identity to the General Public, and now adds the difficulty of presenting a non-Sea World, large whale-lacking adjacent park. I'm not saying they can't do it... I'm just saying it's an awfully large bite they've bitten off.
I'm sure the Six Flags has people that know what they're doing. So did Coca-Cola when they came out with New Coke. So did all the investment firms that poured money into Pets.com, Pseudo.com... Obviously I'm not privy to the inner deliberations of SF execs, but I can't help but wonder if all the debt they've taken on to finance their expansions was prudent. Are they buying and investing because what they're buying and investing in are prudent investments that will create revenue, or because they're trying to hold together a 'house of cards' of debt? Building record breaking coasters in 2000 and 2001 doesn't mean much if the company goes bankrupt and the parks don't open in 2003.
Six Flags Ohio has only begun the work of communicating it's new identity to the General Public, and now adds the difficulty of presenting a non-Sea World, large whale-lacking adjacent park. I'm not saying they can't do it... I'm just saying it's an awfully large bite they've bitten off.
I'm sure the Six Flags has people that know what they're doing. So did Coca-Cola when they came out with New Coke. So did all the investment firms that poured money into Pets.com, Pseudo.com... Obviously I'm not privy to the inner deliberations of SF execs, but I can't help but wonder if all the debt they've taken on to finance their expansions was prudent. Are they buying and investing because what they're buying and investing in are prudent investments that will create revenue, or because they're trying to hold together a 'house of cards' of debt? Building record breaking coasters in 2000 and 2001 doesn't mean much if the company goes bankrupt and the parks don't open in 2003.
Has Six Flags actually said anything about what becomes of Sea World yet? Now that they've bought the park, what's to stop them from inking a franchise agreement with Busch Entertainment so that they can retain the well-known Sea World brand-name and other IP?
I can almost guarantee that the parks will remain separately gated...
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
I can almost guarantee that the parks will remain separately gated...
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
|\ *** HARD HAT AREA ***
|__ | \ .sig under construction
========= ____________|+|!&\ | \==# ##&\
========= OO =OO==O (oooo) (oooo)-(
Six Flags Ohio does not just compete with Cedar Point. And I completely understand Jeff's frustration when "Cedar Point" creeps in to any discussion of SFO or PKI for that matter.
What SFO is competing for is entertainment dollars. What people on the these boards think
of these parks is not as important as whether people are going to show up and spend their money on and at these places.
Amusement parks compete with many of other forms of entertainment, not just other amusement parks. Look at Flordia, are not all of those parks complimenting one another? If Ohio is becoming even more of an amusement park destination place, could not all parks benefit from this.
Times are changing. Perhaps families no longer plan just one amusement park trip for the summer and call it quits. Maybe they expect to get to two or more parks during the season and perhaps multiple times via season passes.
We can argue as to whether SFO is a good park or not, but the fact is that SFO has put themselves on the map. Someone willing to travel to Ohio to visit PKI or Cedar Point also be looking at SFO as a destination as well. Time will tell as to how these recent events shape the amusement park dynamics in Ohio.
Perhaps Ohio, being within one day's drive from much of the North Eastern United States, could stand to benefit from economic downturns or high fuel prices as people may want to stay closer to home and not travel to Florida's entertainment mecca.
What SFO is competing for is entertainment dollars. What people on the these boards think
of these parks is not as important as whether people are going to show up and spend their money on and at these places.
Amusement parks compete with many of other forms of entertainment, not just other amusement parks. Look at Flordia, are not all of those parks complimenting one another? If Ohio is becoming even more of an amusement park destination place, could not all parks benefit from this.
Times are changing. Perhaps families no longer plan just one amusement park trip for the summer and call it quits. Maybe they expect to get to two or more parks during the season and perhaps multiple times via season passes.
We can argue as to whether SFO is a good park or not, but the fact is that SFO has put themselves on the map. Someone willing to travel to Ohio to visit PKI or Cedar Point also be looking at SFO as a destination as well. Time will tell as to how these recent events shape the amusement park dynamics in Ohio.
Perhaps Ohio, being within one day's drive from much of the North Eastern United States, could stand to benefit from economic downturns or high fuel prices as people may want to stay closer to home and not travel to Florida's entertainment mecca.
That was the most intelligent comment I have read so far Jim B. I think you get it my friend.
-------------
Life's too short! Let's go ride some coasters!
-------------
Life's too short! Let's go ride some coasters!
Outstanding point! A good example might be the closing of the build-crazy movie theater chains (nationally anyway, not sure if there are closures in the Cleveland area). I think people are spending money in other places.
Jim B. said:
"What SFO is competing for is entertainment dollars. What people on the these boards think of these parks is not as important as whether people are going to show up and spend their money on and at these places."
And Northeast Ohio has a lot of places! A new employee at work from Florida is astounded at the number of things to do in this area. Within four blocks of where I sit, one can go to the Rock Hall, Science Center, theaters with touring Broadway shows, baseball, football, basketball, etc... and that's just downtown Cleveland. There's also the zoo, dozens of movie theaters, minor league baseball in Akron, laser tag facilities, countless mini-golf and go-kart tracks.
Wow... even I didn't realize how much there was to do around here!
The one thing that does irritate me is the drop off your kids at the park scenario that Six Flags has created. Kids without parents somewhere in the park tend to misbehave and be disrespectful to pretty much everyone. SFO is the largest baby-sitting firm in the area.
-------------
Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
This is my take regarding PKS and its economic outlook:
What PKS is doing is against the prevailing thoughts of their rivals. While most of the other companies are gradually adding attractions (WDW Epcot's next *major* attraction, Mission:SPACE, wont open for several years) PKS is doing an all out blitz. Is this a good move? Will it lead to their downfall? Will this force their competitors to close doors, or will they themselves end up on the dole? The honest answer is, nobody really knows. We can speculate all we want but only time will really tell. All I have to say is this, several businessmen, undoubtedly with experience/educational backgrounds, feel this is a good idea. Could they be wrong, yes. If one personally doesnt feel that this plan has a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding, then that one should not invest their money there. But it is clear to me that there is a significant amount of money behind these plans, so somebody supports it.
And on the subject of doing their shareholders a disservice, the one thing I'm learned in life (well second thing, first is C-Y-A!) is that people are fickle and vote with their feet. If those who actually own PKS stock felt betrayed, nervous, unhappy, etc., you would see a stronger drop in stock price due to people bailing out.
Anyway, I say all that to say this. If you dont have money tied up in PKS stock, why should you care what their decisions are? They are only one company that feeds our mutual addiction. If they aren't there, someone else will fill the gap.
lata,
jeremy
--Who is facinated with the theory of supply and demand.
What PKS is doing is against the prevailing thoughts of their rivals. While most of the other companies are gradually adding attractions (WDW Epcot's next *major* attraction, Mission:SPACE, wont open for several years) PKS is doing an all out blitz. Is this a good move? Will it lead to their downfall? Will this force their competitors to close doors, or will they themselves end up on the dole? The honest answer is, nobody really knows. We can speculate all we want but only time will really tell. All I have to say is this, several businessmen, undoubtedly with experience/educational backgrounds, feel this is a good idea. Could they be wrong, yes. If one personally doesnt feel that this plan has a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding, then that one should not invest their money there. But it is clear to me that there is a significant amount of money behind these plans, so somebody supports it.
And on the subject of doing their shareholders a disservice, the one thing I'm learned in life (well second thing, first is C-Y-A!) is that people are fickle and vote with their feet. If those who actually own PKS stock felt betrayed, nervous, unhappy, etc., you would see a stronger drop in stock price due to people bailing out.
Anyway, I say all that to say this. If you dont have money tied up in PKS stock, why should you care what their decisions are? They are only one company that feeds our mutual addiction. If they aren't there, someone else will fill the gap.
lata,
jeremy
--Who is facinated with the theory of supply and demand.
WOW! This is a far cry from the knee-jerk reactions from yesterday. You guys are blowing me away when your intelligent comments today! I think people are starting to see the positive side of this... ;)
-------------
Life's too short! Let's go ride some coasters!
-------------
Life's too short! Let's go ride some coasters!
Jeff said:
SFO is the largest baby-sitting firm in the area.
This is exactly why Kennywood doesn't offer a season pass. (We even asked them once, and they SAID "we don't want to become the city's daycare center".)
2Hostyl said:
What PKS is doing is against the prevailing thoughts of their rivals. While most of the other companies are gradually adding attractions (WDW Epcot's next *major* attraction, Mission:SPACE, wont open for several years) PKS is doing an all out blitz.
Agreed. If nothing else, Six Flags execs have GUTS. They're spending a lot of money right when most corporations are trying to cut back.
Will it work for them, or against them? We really don't know yet. I can see how it COULD work for them. With the various Six Flags parks being developed (Ohio being the most visible right now with this Seaworld news, but there's a lot of money going around chain-wide), people may decide to NOT travel but instead stay closer to home to "save money", going to "their" Six Flags park instead.
Six Flags may actually be positioning themselves to TAKE ADVANTAGE of an economic downswing. People who want to cut back on expenses will still want to do SOMETHING with SOME entertainment dollars. "If I can go to Six Flags Y and spend $100, why go to Orlando and spend $1000, only part of which even goes to the parks?"
And then if Six Flags gets through this downswing and people start spending again, they'll just rake in even more bucks.
OR this grand experiment could fail, and Six Flags could go bankrupt. Which it will be remains to be seen.
-------------
--Greg
http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/ *** This post was edited by GregLeg on 1/11/2001. ***
I don't have money tied up in PKS stock... why should I care what their decisions are?
Because, if they've made the wrong decisions, and decide to close parks in the face of economic downturn or corporate bankruptcy, I'll no longer have some excellent parks to visit.
The Six Flags folks may well be extremely savvy and are making exactly the right decision: only time will tell. Just take a moment to consider all those savvy dot-com execs who knew what they were doing last year....
Because, if they've made the wrong decisions, and decide to close parks in the face of economic downturn or corporate bankruptcy, I'll no longer have some excellent parks to visit.
The Six Flags folks may well be extremely savvy and are making exactly the right decision: only time will tell. Just take a moment to consider all those savvy dot-com execs who knew what they were doing last year....
Word of mouth and public opinion are big things here. Already the angle here in C-Town is PKS has just stolen Shamu and friends while big business is taking over what used to be two nice parks. Now the public outcry has reached far beyond the traffic problems in Aurora.
People I have talked to around here who have not even seen the new SFO, much less whatever they decide to do with SWO already have a bad perception of the park. Remember its the local population who drive these small "resorts." We may travel thousands of miles to ride a coaster, but the GP will not. *** This post was edited by Joe E. on 1/11/2001. ***
People I have talked to around here who have not even seen the new SFO, much less whatever they decide to do with SWO already have a bad perception of the park. Remember its the local population who drive these small "resorts." We may travel thousands of miles to ride a coaster, but the GP will not. *** This post was edited by Joe E. on 1/11/2001. ***
The one thing I don't get is how so many people can say what SF and CP are doing and for what reason. Everything I have read on here says, SF is doing this for this reason, and CP is going to do this to cancel out what SF did. It's crazy I tell you. :)
My point, Unless you work for the company or are higher up in the park, don't be saying what they are doing because you can't be certain.
Please, don't get mad and flame me for this, it's just my thoughts and opinion.
My point, Unless you work for the company or are higher up in the park, don't be saying what they are doing because you can't be certain.
Please, don't get mad and flame me for this, it's just my thoughts and opinion.
GregLeg said:
" With the various Six Flags parks being developed (Ohio being the most visible right now with this Seaworld news, but there's a lot of money going around chain-wide), people may decide to NOT travel but instead stay closer to home to "save money", going to "their" Six Flags park instead.
Six Flags may actually be positioning themselves to TAKE ADVANTAGE of an economic downswing.
"
And this is quite possibly the way they are looking at it, not trying to capture national markets, but completely dominating the 'home audience'. Not a bad plan at all. (least not on the surface)
slithernoggin said:
Because, if they've made the wrong decisions, and decide to close parks in the face of economic downturn or corporate bankruptcy, I'll no longer have some excellent parks to visit.
Once again, turning to supply and demand, if there is really a market for parks and the like, then someone will fill that void. I wonder though, if PKS was not doing so much with their parks would they remain excellent? Personally, I think the company has a better chance of surviving with more parks. In the end, trust me, if you have money to spend at a park, there will be a park for you to spend it at (it mayy not be the park you want, but thems the breaks!).
One final thing to feel_the_force, I'v got two words for ya! RIGHT ON!
lata,
jeremy
--who wonders when comparing the size and expendetures of SF and Universal's Theme park division who is really further in the hole and who will make the money back quicker
Once again, turning to supply and demand, if there is really a market for parks and the like, then someone will fill that void.
That's nice, but what does it have to do with what I was talking about? I'm interested in how Six Flags will be dealing with paying for its expansion these past years.
Six Flags is spending a lot of money. Six Flags is borrowing a lot of money. Some companies have done this and it's paid off handsomely (Disney. News Corp. McDonald's.) Some have done this and suffered dire consequences (Federated Stores. Loews Cineplex. Any number of dot coms.) Six Flags may be one of the former. Six Flags Magic Mountain may be the number one tourist destination in LA next year; it may have more spending per guest than any park in the SF chain; it may be doing booming business satisfying demand. But if Six Flags is one of the latter, the supply and demand you should be worried about is the supply of dollars feeding the demands of unpaid creditors. I just don't want parks being closed because Six Flags borrowed too much money and couldn't make it's payments.
I dont think six flags could fail now, Since it is clear by the number of comments on this post that people are sitting up and taking notice. They have a strong foothold in the area, and will continue to expand.
I dont think PKI or CP would take an attendance hit, because any competitive loss would be differed by the fact that more people would make an ohio coaster run for the combined pleasures of PKI SFO and CP.
-------------
I'm 2 for 2 so far!!!
I dont think PKI or CP would take an attendance hit, because any competitive loss would be differed by the fact that more people would make an ohio coaster run for the combined pleasures of PKI SFO and CP.
-------------
I'm 2 for 2 so far!!!
Closed topic.
