Which Six Flags Parks will do best as family parks?

This comes down to a question of marketing. When it comes right down to it, there are more "family" attractions at SFMM than strictly for adults or the dreaded teen, but zero of the advertising reflects that instead focusing on only promoting the coasters/thrills/"extreme park" image.

In LA, all we had were Tatsu billboards, but they also added/brought back a decent Chinese acrobat show, but none of the marketing material focuses on the show. If the chain wants that family image, they better spend some more time promoting that change.

I have yet to see an ad - print or tv, in heavy rotation that plays to the family demo. Between Carrot Club, Acrobats, the stunt show (new last year), the parade/fireworks, the 5 coasters that are good for kids to pre-teen, 4 water rides, a few flats and everything in BBW - there is quite a bit for families to do. But when it comes to advertising, the big coasters is all we see. So is it any wonder families and locals have that impression that SFMM is strictly for teens and thrill seekers?

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Arthur Bahl said:

What about SFA? This park is a big question mark. It is in big metropolitan area but has an image problem. It is also in a location that does not make it conducive to an upscale image. A premium park would be better off somewhere other than Prince Georges County.

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Arthur, my friend, you and I need to take a real estate tour around SFA. "In a location that does not make it conducive to an upscale image?" Have you ever taken a look at the houses that are near the park? Have you ever looked at the houses behind the park? These are not affordable houses in the least bit. Have you checked into the retirement community across from the overflow parking lot? It doesn't look cheap to me.

Have you ever looked at the two mega-churches across the street? Yes, that's right, Evangel Church is such a big church that the church you see in front "hides" the older megachurch which is now used for the youth ministry. Another upscale housing community is soon to be built next to the church according to the sign.

SFA might be in PG County, but it's only a few miles to Anne Arundel County [which includes Annapolis] via 301, which is very wealthy.

In the case of SFA, perception might be part of the problem. This park has an ongoing image problem and its proximity to the city limits of Washington DC itself doesn't help with this. It is posssible that upscaling the park and making major changes MIGHT help but will it draw enough people away from HP, PKD and BGW? Actually, the Baltimore Washington area is a good place for the type of park that Six Flags envisions. It's just the question, will the more affluent clientile actually go there or will they retain their old pattern of going to other parks?

Finally, there is the real estate question. If the land around this park is so valuable, SFA might end up being added to the list of parks to be sold. All of these factors make the direction and prospects for this park uncertain.

Right now, The Great Escape IS the best family park in the Six Flags chain... accordingly to Shaprio.

It has everything that they want, including the already marketed families that attend the park... but the theming, the shows, the rides, and the overall atmosphere is exactly what they're looking for. This is the park of which they have said in the past in quotes that they'd like other parks to model after.

I really don't know if that's such a good idea, since they DO need to get some higher-thrill rides for the adults & older kids to keep the age differiential as wide as possible (as opposed to just adults w/ young kids). Otherwise, they'll be trying to compete too much with Magic Forest down the street, which isn't fair since it's a Six Flags park that's so much larger.

Other than that... I say Great Adventure could also be the true flagship family park since it has the most variety of any park out there. From the golden kingdom for the kids, to the wild coasters for teens/adults, to the zoo for everybody... a little tweeking here & there to make the whole atmosphere a little more "family friendly" can truly set this park as a model for all the other ones.

There's nothing "fair" or "unfair" about TGE competing too much with Magic Forest. I'm sure SF would like nothing less than to suck every possibly dollar out of that park, and if Magic Forest doesn't like it, they'll have to change, and do what they can to keep their audience. That's business. As for this:

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Intamin Fan said:
Have you ever looked at the two mega-churches across the street? Yes, that's right, Evangel Church is such a big church that the church you see in front "hides" the older megachurch which is now used for the youth ministry.

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I'm not exactly sure what this proves. The area in general is experiencing a lot of growth, I don't really see what this illustrates. I understand you're trying to somehow point out the general affluence of the surrounding areas or something, but I really don't think 2 mega churches right down the street prove much. Are such establishments really such a good indicator of...anything besides lots of people wanting to go to church?

And anyway, you give some good anecdotal evidence about housing in the immediate area around SFA, including retirment housing. I'm sure those retirees will really be flocking to the park! The point is that SFA needs to draw from a market much larger than the houses 30 minutes from the park to survive. The population of Anne Arundel County looks to be about half a million people. And the per-capita income is about $27,578.

Not really doubting your argument here, just saying that unless we really had some hard research in front of us, its not so easy to make good, well informed conclusions. *** Edited 6/28/2006 11:57:28 AM UTC by matt.***

matt: Do you realize just how *big* of a population base lives in "houses 30 minutes from the park"? I live about 30min from the park (give ot take Woodrow Wilson bridge traffic) and "cheap" houses in my neighborhood (Springfield) are appraising for half a million plus. And let's not even talk about other places in Northern Virginia like Old Town Alexandria, Arlington/Falls Church, and Kingstowne. There is a whole heap of money in this area.

For someone to believe that PG county is somehow "not an affluent enough area" is ridiculous. It's a fast growing (population), middle class suburb, with mostly younger professional families. These are *EXACTLY* the people you want. Those families with kids young enough to still have to visit with parents and doing "well-enough" financially (median household income ~$53,000) to splure on a day out at the park. According to the estimted census data, as of 2004 there are over 220,000 kids under 18 (60,000+ under the age of 5) living in PG alone. With an average household of around 3 persons, we talk talking about a ton of families that are represented *right there*. That's plenty of base to start with...then you can add in Montgomery County and NoVa (even more wealthy areas).

Oh, and "per capita income" isn't the best standard to look at as it does not back out children. Median household income is a much more telling stat as that tells you that half of the households have more or less than that number. (Anne Arundel's is ~$64,000...quite a bit higher than the national average of ~43,000).

But you (and Arthur) do raise a good question of why more people dont choose SFA over PKD (I really dont think the NoVa people are big on HersheyPark as a day trip and both HP and BGE can be considered 'weekend destinations', like Ocean City). I think much of it is brand recognition. PKD, for so long, was considered "the big park" and Adventure World was "the little park on 214". Maybe that was a good thing. I'd bet Shapiro wishes it was still that way. Premier interjected SFA into a "thrill war" with PKD when I dont think they really had to. All SFA has to do is present a clean, fun, safe atmosphere and they'll do fine. It's a "spur of the moment" type park because of its location. Most locals dont have to worry about the crazy 95south traffic that backs up by Potomac Mills both ways *every* weekend. And it's small enough that you can get meaningful riding in in even just a few hours.

They have just about all the infrastructure in place to be that "The Great Escape" type park. They hav plenty of thrills, the waterpark provides chills, and they have a great family base to draw from. Their problem has only been their operations. People go, have a ****ty day waiting in relatively non-existant, yet still slow-moving lines, they encounter lackluster employees who sometimes seem to wish they were anywhere but the park and they've gotten a bad rap in the Post due to a handfull of isolated incidents of fights/shootings (big problem).

But there are simply too many sufficiently "well-off" families in this area to throw in the towel especially when you dont need much capital investment (in terms of rides) to cater to your desired audience. SFA has *great* potential as a family park. Now let's see if Shapiro/Prather can help SFA *realize* that potential.

Otherwise, that land would fetch a pretty penny as a new subdivision. (Midway Estates?)
lata, jeremy

^ I was loving everything you had to say until that last piece....no less accurate, just less *fun*... ;)

SFA needs *next-to-nothing* in terms of capital investment IMO, it's ALL about the employees and operations...some family-friendly rides (read: kids' area complete with, you guessed it, a spinning coaster) by Batwing and Supes wouldn't HURT though... ;)

Ok time to defend one of the parks that some here have said would have issues becoming a family park. The park would be, you guessed it SFGAdv.

This park has the potential that most are using as reasoning for other parks and some of the infastructure is already in place.

Water park: yes there is one but it can be added on with a nice action river and a tornado slide.

Kiddie rides: TWO Brand new areas that are awesomely done and one area that can be redesigned to make Three great kiddie areas.

Shows: Spirit of the Tiger, Dolphin show, many music shows, Looney Tunes/DC Comics character meet and greets, Animal Ambassadors, Thrill show on the lake. This park is packed with shows. Plus concerts in the North Star Arena where they could bring in family friendly acts.

Take out one of the poor operations wise coasters. Chiller or Kingda Ka if they don't get it running right within the next season or two. Put in the Spinning Mouse that Mr. Shapiro seems to love.

Add to or repair the flat rides in the park, beef up security more to control the crowds, and reprice the park to make it more family friendly (gate and in park) but raise season pass prices to help cut down on the baby sitting.

Oh yeah and what else does this park have to make it family friendly that no other Six Flags has? The drive thru safari! Talk about a family friendly part of the park.

Someone tell me this park can't be remade into a family park with more staff, more security, better operations and a few changes. Yes it does have 14 coasters of which most are high thrill. But I still say if you wander through the three redone areas, Golden Kingdom, Plaza del Carnival and Bugs Bunny National Forest you can see where they want to go with this park.

P.S. If they do add a hotel on site with an indoor waterpark in the future. It can only be more of a plus.

dragon: I dont think Shapiro really wants to get into the hotel side of things. I cant remember which interview it was, nor the exact wording, but I definitely get the sense that Shaprio wants to focus solely on the amusement business. However, I also got the feeling that he would entertain a "partnership" sort of like Universal Orlando and Lowes Hotels, where a hotelier would assume some of the risk while SFI basically just puts up the land and collects a fee. Personally, I'd think that a great idea.

As for can GAdv be a "falimy park" ABSOLUTELY. As you eloquently stated above, the park has all the trappings a park could want to appeal to all ages. Moreover, I think that it is actually one of the better themed parks in the chain (I love the 'birthday cake' themed building). Playing up the Golden Kingdom theme with only cursory mention of Kingda Ka as "King of this Jungle" would be great. GAdv is one of the most well rounded parks in the country. It is in fantastic postition to "exploit" (for lack of a better term) the faimly angle.

Again, fun, clean, safe are the buzzwords for this park. Well, and maybe do something with that big ass lake sometimes. :)

I think Shapiro is missing a serious *opportunity* there though, jeremy. SFGAdv is the ONE park in the chain that could FILL hotel rooms for better than half the year....add in some benefits like hlaf-hour early entry to the park, and the "GOLDEN Kingdom" takes on a whole new meaning... :)

The employees are already *better* than SFA's. Long way to go, still. Operations-wise, SFGAdv has been far too similar to SFMM, and that is a real shame...

RGW: I believe you are correct, heck, when the hotel was first announced, *I* said I'd stay there. But the hotel doesnt fall into Shaprio's plans. You see, building a hotel is a significant capital expense. With SFI as far in debt as they are, Shapiro is looking for more low-investment ways of increasing revenue. It would take several years for the hotel to be paid off, meanwhile, the company continues to wallow in debt.

However, I'm sure that if Hilton (likely not Paris) came in and said: "We want to put up a Doubletree on your property. We'll front the construction and give you a percent of our revenue". I'm *sure* he'd be willing to listen. But for SFI to "go it alone", in his mind would be a bad idea. I think he'd be happier with a "coalition of the willing". (Similar to CP and the Radisson).

BTW: Was the Breakers at CP always owned by the company now known as Cedar Fair or was it originally an outside organization.

CP owned and operated the Radisson Hotel in Sandusky, it was not a partnership with another hotel operator. That property, of course, is now the Castaway Bay indoor water park resort.

Hotel Breakers, like Sandcastle Suites and Breakers Express, was built by Cedar Point. It was always owned and operated by Cedar Point/Cedar Fair, never by an outside company.

Was it *always* owned by CP? I was under the impression that at least at one time (circa 1989) that the Radisson was independent of CP.

Jeremy: Wow--didn't know you lived in Springfield. One of my best friends lives there, not far off Old Keene Mill. Whereabouts are you?

Anyway, AW was probably better off not trying to seriously compete with PKD, which IS the big, well-known park in the region. I think some of their additions and upgrades have made the park nicer, but the 2 biggest problems of this park, IMO, are operations and reputation (actually 2 big problems at SFMM, too).

The park is in a decent location, though not quite as good as PKD in terms of access, etc. The park has a decent collection of coasters; one of Shapiro's spinning family coasters would fit nice here, as would some more flats, both thrill and family. Another major problem here is the park layout. The last management team really messed this up, starting with Coyote Creek, then Skull Island, and now seriously with Gotham City. Actually, Skull Island and Coyote Creek were fine until Gotham City was expanded, and now you have a park full of dead ends--4 main ones that I can think of.

To me, to really make this park really good, it would take quite a bit. But to the GP, fixing the ops, rep, and adding some family attractions and marketing would do good for them.

Heck, they already have a pretty good waterpark, so at least that's in their favor.

I think one of their problems is that they tried too haed to deliver but failed shortly after the rebranding especially when the cash for cap ex slowed down in favor of the previous management over developing SFMM & SFGRADV over the past few seasons.

People were going to PKD because that's where the new rides were being added,however they still need to fix up the dead ends,add some more flats & a family coaster<along with another reliable thrill coaster> to improve the park's selection of rides.

Another family section would certainly work wonders if they were to put in some junior rides & not just the little kiddie rides currently in LTMT.The park has the potential & it would have the attendance base to support it if they'd just improve the infrastructure,operations & offerings that they've already got by adding a modest expansion or two.

SFA's operations have improved this year. By this time each year, the park has sunk into a funk. A funk they didn't come out of until October. We had a week or two with rides breaking down. In years past, that would have sunk the morale of the park and the park experience would've turned crappy. This year, so far, that hasn't happened. If this park can keep improving in the areas they need to improve and not slack in the areas they are doing well in, SFA will be fine. The park is 4-6 weeks away from being much improved over the past five years in my book. I hope they keep it up.

If SFA could add a childs/family section to complete a loop between Coyote Creek and Gotham City, it would be a good idea. Like Batwingfan said above, something more than just all kiddie rides. And there has to be some sort of ride or attraction put over in the area where Iron Eagle and Sky Escaper were. If a spinning coaster would fit in this area, it might be just the ticket.

And I agree, that Terry seems to have lit a fire under some of the employees this year at SFA, so lets hope this continues.

If however SFA was ever sold to develop the land as a housing community, I wanna have my house built on Joker's Jinx Blvd. or Typhoon Seacoaster Drive...lol

Are you sure about Typhoon Sea Coaster drive? It might be closed an awful lot. ;)

^Either that, or it would be awfully slow due to backups. So here's what's needed at SFA:

a) Bug's Bunny's National Forest--having one kiddie section is not enough. Once you've passed into Gotham City you've passed into the "no kiddie zone."

b) Spinning coaster/mine train/ or junior coaster like Blackbeard's Pirate Train at Gadv.

c) More infrastructure in Gotham City--A restuarant with a bathroom is sorely needed

d) a real loglfume--Typhoon Sea Coaster remains a problem maker, although since the installation of the "oldschool" sensors last year, things have gotten better

If you can figure out how to make a path between Coyote Creek and Gotham City--more power to you--but as it stands, go up to the intersection of Mind Eraser and Renegade Rapids and you tell me exactly how you're going to get a path through there. You can't go through ME, because there's only about twenty or more supports in the way. And you can't go through RR, because the wall you see for the exit, "hides" the path of the water to the unload station (which you go right over on ME).

The only (very expensive) solution I've come up with is to build a bridge over to the island in the middle of RR, and then another to the other side of RR over by the shed that the boats go through. OR, reroute the course of RR before the unload station, which I would think would be even more expensive. I think this is where Premier just didn't have any forsight back in the days of AW. Of course they probably never imagined themselves as a Six Flags either.

Yea, a bridge or reroute are about the only solutions to this. Unless, of course, SFMM kicks the can and we get B:TR to replace Mind Eraser :) But I don't think that's gonna happen.

But if they did that, then they should still develop the land to get around to Gotham City. Maybe this could be the location of the second kiddie land, such as BBNP. If they poured enough money into it, they could make it work.

A spinning coaster could also be put over here, or it could go in the Nantucket area.

Another huge area that could possibly be used for future development is the area between SROS and Batwing. They could maybe squeeze one of SFMM's steel behemoths in there somehow :)

I could go on for a bit about SFA and their problem and possible solutions, but it's going to be up to management to take care of this place. It is fixable; probably more easily so than SFMM--it's just gonna take some time and money.