Where's the WOOD?
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-Bob
Knott's Berry Farm Cuba ~South Park
"Your proctologist called, he found your head!" ~Jerry "The King" Lawler
Well I cant comment on the *bad* woodie v. *bad* steelie comment as I'm not sure there are too many coasters I've ridden that I would call *bad*. Sure, there are those that I'm not thrilled about riding (Shockwave & Hurler @ PKD, JackRabbit, Racer and Exterminator @ KW, and Rotting Lumber, GASM-II & Skull Mountain @ SFGAdv) but even still, I wouldnt go as far as to call them *bad*. Just not for me. :)
But anyway Woody: Let's assume en arguendo that your numbers are correct. Yes, in five years woodies are still cheaper, but in order to gleen any useful information out of that, you need to cost it out over the *entire* lifspan of the coasters. Now, we dont really know what the average lifespan of a steelie is as they've not been around that long, by again en arguendo let's use 40 years (the current life of the non-gimicky Matterhorn). Now, assuming cost remain constant, at the end of 40 years you've spent 24 mil on Villian and 14 mil on B:KF. Heck even at 20 years you've spent more on the woodie. And I can rattle off quite a few 20 year old steelies!
And riding B&M loopers can be drastically different. For example, I love Kraken and Kumba, but you all *KNOW* how I feel about the Incredible Hulk Coaster (aside: Why does no one complain about this name like they do Batman: The Ride?). But even if I were to grant you that, I could say the same thing about the majority of single out and Back coasters. Up...down....up....down...*yawn*...I feel like I'm painting Mr. Myagi's fence!
Anyway, I dont believe there is a need for more than two or three woodies in a park. For example, look at PKD. They are maxed out with three (four if you count the kiddie) woodies. They have a quasi-twister (Grizzly) an out and back variant (Hurler) and a racer (Rebel Yell). What type of woodie do you put in next? Something like Shivering Timbers (GP Comment "It's like a bigger Rebel Yell"). How about a terrain coaster like Raven (GPC "That's just like Grizzly"). But put in a 4-D (GPC: "Dear God what is that thing?!?) or a B&M Hyper (GPC: "Wow that's HUGE), then get back to me with what is best for the parks interests.
And Chuckie: I dont think that's an easy claim to make. While some might belive that Villain is a *better* ride than B:KF, I'd be willing to plunk down dollars that more ppl went through B:KF's turnstyles than went through Villain's.
And honestly, our personal preferences are not really germane to this discussion. We are discussing opinions in the aggregate. So while there may be a vocal minority that praises woodies, I dont think that they hold much weight overall.
Which leads me to another question: Why in the hell are most so-called enthusiasts such "woodie-snobs" anyway? Are they just sentimental bastards who want some sublime esoteric connection to "days long past" or does it just sound better? Personally, I tend to prefer wood to steel (now) because I'm not as thrilled with going upside down anymore. But hypers (especially the Intamin kind) give the same type of feel to me with the added bonus of in general being more thrilling because of the height/speed. So guess what is currently my favorite type of coaster ;)
lata,
jeremy
--who note that if you guessed out and back inverted woodie you have you head up your best friend's rectum
I was using the term "bad" just for simplicities sake. I can only think of 2 coasters that I would probably never ride again given the chance. I could have used the phrase "sub par" or something like that but it would have just cluttered up my prose. :)
And could you explain what you mean by "woodie snobs"? I don't think I fit into that category, but i can think of at least 10 wooden coasters i would rather be riding before my favorite steelie...
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
Jeremy,
I am not sure if I would say that I have heard most enthusiasts called 'wood snobs', but I have heard of a few. Myself, I am one of the few I know that loves steel coasters and going upside down. I also love wood coasters and don't exactly choose one or the other because I see equal benefits for both types of coasters.
However, if there ever was a type of person that could be called a 'wood snob' is the person that simply can't stand the fact that there are some of us that enjoy steel coasters also and have to tell us that every chance they get.
True story....
I went to a coaster event at Conneaut Lake in 1997. It was basically my first time meeting people from the Internet that shared the same likes in my hobby. I met one man who was going on and on about how ALL steel coasters should be torn down because they were boring to him. I kind of chuckled because I thought he was kidding. He looks over at me and says,
"Um, I guess you like those 'fake' rides?"
I replied, " What do you mean by fake? If you mean steel coasters, then yes, I like them. I don't see anything fake about them at all. That's just my view."
" So you see nothing wrong with riding a B&M coaster? Where is the excitement that a wooden coaster has? If I wanted to ride something with positive g's, I would sit on my couch'
I just decided to ignore him because he seemed like he was offended that I actually liked steel coasters.
There is also a couple of other folks that I know of that will try and argue with me at events about the 'horrible world of steel coasters'. I usually just ignore them and watch them to continue making fools of themselves by going on and on about how 'wooden coasters are going to be outlawed because of all those steel crappers'.
I usually get a laugh out of folks like that. I do respect everyone's choice, but at the same time, if someone is going to come up to me and try and insult me because of my views, then I simply just ignore them instead of adding fuel to the fire. I don't mind a good debate every once in a while but people that simply can't handle the fact that I may think differently do get on my nervs sometimes.
-Sean (wood, steel, it honestly doesn't matter to me as long as it is FUN! Anyone remember that word?)
I seem to be one of the few enthusiasts who professes a love of steel above wood.
Lucky Raven is a great ride, or Raptor would still be my No. 1. My Top 10 has just two wooden rides in it.
I remember when I first started talking to enthusiasts, I was almost embarrassed that I liked steel rides. If your favorite coaster wasn't Phoenix or Thunderbolt, there was something wrong with you. I remember in my first issue of Rollercoaster!, there was a "profile" of a guy who put that he had ridden "150 wooden coasters, steel coasters don't count."
That's pathetic. Like what you like, and let others do the same. No need to sport a 'tude.
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He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking; can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
One point that hasn't been really mentioned is that many steel coasters rely on having a gimmick thus often making their popularity very ephemeral. I am not making a broad generalizations since many steels are still popular over many years but look at Arrow mega-loopers or suspendeds. For many steel coasters once the novelty of the ride is over and it cannot claim any superlative, ridership usually goes down.
People, GP and enthusiasts, expect a steel coaster to bring a unique experience while also being a good ride, which is why some steelies have to resort to having a gimmick. Wood coasters do not need to something vastly unique to make the ride stand-out. How many parks have steels of the same type? Not many and if they do such as SFGam (Which has three inverts but all completely different rides) they each have something that gives them a unique niche. Plenty of parks have multiple out & backs or twisters.
Wood coasters also have the nostalgic aspect to them which in a way negates the GP notion that all Woodies are "rickety" and "Boring because their old".
Another factor as to why we do not see as many woodies is due slightly to the lack of wood coaster companies. There are numerous steel companies to deal with but nowadays there are really only two or three(Intamin emerging with their wood product) major wood coaster companies.
The bottom line is Wood or steel, a popular coaster will bring in money and the crowds. Most of the time, a coaster will achieve the results a park wants whether its a 20 million dollar 4-D at SFMM or a small CCI at IB.
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confucius say:Show-off always shown up in showdown.
Best Fortune ever!!
sethman said:
Another factor as to why we do not see as many woodies is due slightly to the lack of wood coaster companies. There are numerous steel companies to deal with but nowadays there are really only two or three(Intamin emerging with their wood product) major wood coaster companies.
No, that's not really the case. Its all about supply and demand. If there was a larger demand for wooden coasters, they would get built, regardless of how many wooden coaster designers there are. The parks decide what gets built each and every time.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
Sean F. said:
Jeremy,
I am not sure if I would say that I have heard most enthusiasts called 'wood snobs', but I have heard of a few. Myself, I am one of the few I know that loves steel coasters and going upside down. I also love wood coasters and don't exactly choose one or the other because I see equal benefits for both types of coasters.
However, if there ever was a type of person that could be called a 'wood snob' is the person that simply can't stand the fact that there are some of us that enjoy steel coasters also and have to tell us that every chance they get.
True story....
I went to a coaster event at Conneaut Lake in 1997. It was basically my first time meeting people from the Internet that shared the same likes in my hobby. I met one man who was going on and on about how ALL steel coasters should be torn down because they were boring to him. I kind of chuckled because I thought he was kidding. He looks over at me and says,
"Um, I guess you like those 'fake' rides?"
I replied, " What do you mean by fake? If you mean steel coasters, then yes, I like them. I don't see anything fake about them at all. That's just my view."
" So you see nothing wrong with riding a B&M coaster? Where is the excitement that a wooden coaster has? If I wanted to ride something with positive g's, I would sit on my couch'
I just decided to ignore him because he seemed like he was offended that I actually liked steel coasters.
There is also a couple of other folks that I know of that will try and argue with me at events about the 'horrible world of steel coasters'. I usually just ignore them and watch them to continue making fools of themselves by going on and on about how 'wooden coasters are going to be outlawed because of all those steel crappers'.
I usually get a laugh out of folks like that. I do respect everyone's choice, but at the same time, if someone is going to come up to me and try and insult me because of my views, then I simply just ignore them instead of adding fuel to the fire. I don't mind a good debate every once in a while but people that simply can't handle the fact that I may think differently do get on my nervs sometimes.
-Sean (wood, steel, it honestly doesn't matter to me as long as it is FUN! Anyone remember that word?)
This is bottom line for me.While I am partial to wooden coasters.I would not hesitate to ,nor feel any shame in riding a steel coaster.I am just happy to be able to ride a coaster,as I live in one of the most coaster deficient areas in the USA.
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I can fix anything.....where is the duct tape?
If you put my favorite wooden coaster, Legend, and my favorite steel coaster, SFNE's Superman, side by side and give me ERT on both, chosing would be really tough but most likely I'd ride Legend more than Superman, but not because I have a dislike for steel coasters. Its because I really love wood [shut up, Sean!]. Even more so, what I cherish the most is old, classic wood [shut up, Sean!]. That's not to say I'd always choose wood over steel, but normally I would. I don't, however, think that makes me a snob. Like Sean, its all about having fun and I'd rather be on ANY coaster than no coaster at all. Yes, even a Boomerang or SLC.
Speaking of Sean...I wonder if that guy who spoke to you at CLP was none other than RRC's Icono Clast? He only considers woodies to be coasters, while calling steel coasters "gravity devices" or something like that.
And to all - congrats on having a serious discussion and not a flame war. Now...who wants to compare CP vs. SRMM? Kidding!!!!
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2002 - the year of IB's LoCoSuMo!!
SRMM? Is that like Stark RAVEN MAVEN Madness?
BTW: "Woodie Snob" is not a term that I personally coined (as opposed to being the sole proprietor of 'Long Dong Sean' ;)). Rather, it was a term of endearment along the line of "Airtime Whore" that I heard used over on URC. There are some so-called enthusiasts that actually cherish that moniker.
Pas moi!
lata,
jeremy
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Besides, if we were really shutting down people we disagreed with, would Jeremy (2Hostyl) still be around? :) I think not. - Jeff 1/24/02
Maybe SFGA's Viper is the exception to the rule? It is not a CCI, yet it is a well received medium sized wood, but I don't see Six Flags making copies of it since at other parks.
-Jason
Who would LOVE to see SFMM announce a CCI Out & Back as "New for 2003!"
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Nothing... NOTHING... can prepare you for... the Fourth Dimension!
Sean, I am a admitted wood snob! I can go to HW or IB and ride till I drop. Do I dislike Steelies? NO. Infact there are several steelies I would love to be able to ride till I drop, S:ROS, FOF, Some mine trains, Tigg'r, Lazer
Im just saying that because I prefer wood, It dosn't mean a steel is bad in any way and I am happy to share a ride on any steel with anybody.
Jeremy, I said that Villain was the best ride at SFWOA, Yes, that is personal prefference IMHO. It's a funny thing, when I visited SFWOA in 2000, I did not care much for BKF, Last year though I fell in love with it and found it to be one of very few B&M's that actually offer a bit of airtime too :)
On my 2000 visit, we only got one ride on Villain and I found it not performing, In 2001 I got 3 rides on it in insane mode and just flat fell in love with Villain, I also loved Dipper on both visits, S:UE on both visits was down most of the time.
Just because I love a wooden coaster dosn't mean that steel lovers are freaks, I hope you see it vise-versa as I enjoy steel, Expecially when they are new to me.
As to the B&M Loopers being the same basic ride, I said there are exceptions, I find the layouts of Kumba, Montu, Fire to be a very refreshing difference from the loop, Dive loop, 0'g, cobra roll norm, Kumbas biggest asset IMHO is it's low to the ground layout. I love Raptor, Medusa and some other B&M's also.
Chuck, who thinks 10 woodies in one park is not unreasonable :)
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Charles Nungester
167 coasters and hopes to be over 200 by the end of 2002 :)
Mamoosh said:
If you put my favorite wooden coaster, Legend, and my favorite steel coaster, SFNE's Superman, side by side and give me ERT on both, chosing would be really tough but most likely I'd ride Legend more than Superman, but not because I have a dislike for steel coasters. Its because I really love wood [shut up, Sean!]. Even more so, what I cherish the most is old, classic wood [shut up, Sean!]. That's not to say I'd always choose wood over steel, but normally I would. I don't, however, think that makes me a snob. Like Sean, its all about having fun and I'd rather be on ANY coaster than no coaster at all. Yes, even a Boomerang or SLC.
Speaking of Sean...I wonder if that guy who spoke to you at CLP was none other than RRC's Icono Clast? He only considers woodies to be coasters, while calling steel coasters "gravity devices" or something like that.
And to all - congrats on having a serious discussion and not a flame war. Now...who wants to compare CP vs. SRMM? Kidding!!!!
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2002 - the year of IB's LoCoSuMo!!
Moosh, Since my favorite Steel and wood are the same as yours, I would use that as comparison to my feelings of these two coasters.
On my visit to SFNE, We basically got ERT on S:ROS as about 6pm the park was deserted from a steady drizzle. I found that after about 15 of my 20+ rides, I was getting bruises as bad as G trains from the airtime on the T bars. I could ride and enjoy that coaster all day and night and still enjoy it though.
I have enjoyed many rides on Legend including 7 straight on Saturday after SRM last year. IMHO That coaster surprises me every single time while S:ROS came to be the exact same experience over and over (which is not a bad thing) But to me Legend never gets old, Exahusting maybe but not old.
They are two cream of the crop rides IMHO and I am glad we have all these coasters to enjoy.
Im going to point out something here that separates steel from wood for me, While enjoy steel I have never had one terrify me or make me giggle and laugh like many a woodie has done. Legend often makes me brake into hysterical laughter from the four corners of death (Mooshing). Phoenix has you out of your seat so much that im like a kid with his first toy, Cornaball delivers a wicked little ride that is not expected from it's size, Raven and villain with their DROP and incredible airtime never fail to get a gasp or a woohoo even though I know they are there and are comming and have experienced it before, It is still like a fresh breath of air and excitement, Now will I say that many a woodie is rougher, Yes but the kind of rough has a lot to do with if it is enjoyable or not. I do not like the rough that dislocates your back or makes your head hurt. SoB was giving that type ride prior to the add on days at PKI and Mean Streak used to give you such a headache in the afternnoon the rest of the ride while it was more thrilling faster (Pre trim) was more like a just let me off now! Experience.
I had a woodie last year that IMHO thought was too rough in the backseat, Skyliner! Yes it gave incredible airtime on the first drop but the washboard at the bottom of the drops wiped all the thrill out for me in that seat! I do like skyliner and rode it in seats that were more agreeable to me and ended up having a great time. I have also had simular experiences on Screechin' Eagle (Broken Tail bone) in the back seat.
Somehow a woodie just always feels new to me and most steels don't no matter how many times I ride them.
Chuck, trying to explain, but will never succeed and says if you like em, Ride em! :)
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Charles Nungester
167 coasters and hopes to be over 200 by the end of 2002 :)
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Off with the trims!
My fellow Americans; Let's Roll!
Woodencoaster.com
Ravenguy, the number of wooden coaster companies shows the lack of demand for wooden coasters. Thats is very true but if there were more wooden companies offering different varieties of woodies, something special (i.e Intamin's Hyper woodie)that would differentiate the coaster from the rest of the woodies. Chain parks such as SF, CF and others want to offer new innovative rides to their customers. The fact that there are only three major wooden coaster companies allows for less innovation and variety.
Every few years there is some radical new design in steel coasters which may entice parks to buy the coaster, the wooden companies do not have something like that. The wooden sector is relatively stoic, there hasn't been any new design thats earth shattering except for maybe SOB's vertical loop.
Now, I am not bashing the wooden coaster companies since I love both CCI and GCI but if there were more wooden coaster companies out there, there would be more development, more inovation and probably more wooden coasters at parks. I think Intamin presence in this area will bring some much needed advances in track design, layout, height and other aspects. With another competitor in the market, the level of originality and quality should increase in the other existing companies if they want to be successful.
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sethman said:
The fact that there are only three major wooden coaster companies allows for less innovation and variety.
But what we've already determined is that there just isn't room for gimmickry in the wooden coaster formula. What do you want to see? Inverted wooden coasters? Standups? Mega loopers?
I don't see a correspondance between the number of wooden coaster designers and the amount of innovation coming out of them. The problem is not the number of companies whatsoever, the problem is that wooden coasters don't offer an obvious variation on the roller coaster theme for parks except that they are made out of wood.
Also, depending on what you call "major," there are more than three. I count CCI, GCI, RCCA, Intamin, Vekoma, and CoasterWorks. The market is pretty much saturated as it is, which is why new coaster companies aren't popping up all over the country side. If there were any more companies offering new and different products, that would just be a few more products that would never get built. Like I said before, everything originates at the demand side, and right now, the demand just isn't there.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
*** This post was edited by ravenguy98 on 3/20/2002. ***
*** This post was edited by ravenguy98 on 3/20/2002. ***
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2002 - the year of IB's LoCoSuMo!!
Dont get me wrong, I like wooden coasters. Out of my top five coasters, two are steel, three are wood (and none of them are remotely alike....) I just get tired of this sentiment that there is something inherently wrong with steelies, I put it in the same jar with the rants against individual restraints.
Soggy: Georgia Cyclone was made after Viper. Then again both were made after Texas Cyclone. Which of course was only built because Six Flags could not buy the CI Cyclone....And Villain, Medusa, and the ROARs are mid-sized and well received (I assume...)
And 'moosh: I'm assuming you are intentionally being a butt-nugget for the sake of humor, but in case you arent, by demand, rg98 (sound like a pesticide :)) meant it in the economic sense. If you have the dollar to back up your desire then you aren't really demonstrating demand.
lata,
jeremy
--who re-iterates: "If it dont make dollars, then it dont make sense!"
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